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Old 04-06-2010, 11:06 PM   #21
Dbanaaa
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About Sanbi i really think he is underpowered for a 26 chakra summon i mean the difference between him and Gobi is only 4 chakra but Gobi has way better stats compared to Sanbi so i think he should be +4 Tai / +4 Endurace .
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Old 04-11-2010, 07:11 PM   #22
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Alright, here's my attempt to balance Shichibi:

Let me preface this post by saying that I found a low nin solution for Lv 59 ninjas, Lv 27 summon, and 1% chance to clear impossible using 6 LWs that people can reasonably obtain in the course of the game.

I then started my search for a Shichibi solution using that as a benchmark.

Shichibi team setup:

2x Hybrid FNG (10+3.5 tai, 10+3.5 nin, yea I know they don't exist, but just humor me), High damage class (+35 tai, +35 nin as abilities, ideal case)
1x Hybrid FNG, super high damage class (+45 tai, +45 nin, e.g. Itachi-equivalent)
1x Hybrid starter jounin, Kurenai class (spread her stats/growth equally in tai/nin), combine bonus from 400/800 abilities +30 tai, +30 nin
1x Hybrid jounin, Ibiki class (equal tai/nin stat)
1x Hybrid FNK, once again equal tai/nin spread including the 40 stat pt bonus, same ability bonus as Oro FNK but spread evenly into tai/nin

Every ninja now has two equipment slot used up by their 400/800 ability so just need to assign the following LWs:

Zweihender, Zangetsu, Murasame, Luna, Moonchaser, LM8 LW3 in that order. Note, starter jounin needs Luna to get sufficient stamina.

Sim tool: Kyuubi Basher v1.2


I started by trying +x tai/ +x nin, went through a large number of sims ranging from +1, +1.5, to +2. I would decrease reroll/crit bonuses until the benchmark is met. But I found that the team's performance usually lies on one side of the benchmark or the other. Furthermore, the summon was beginning to look like Gobi. And the more damage I added, the more competitive it became for battle arena, displacing both SD and Hachibi. So I scrapped that idea.

Next I tried endurance per udon's suggestion.

I tried +1 endurance (Shichi I) and +2 endurance (Shichi II)

For each summon, I adjusted only reroll because if you take crit above 2%, there will be a point somewhere down the line where Shichibi can compete with Hachibi due to the way critical only yields two values for pure tai. To limit my search space, I also decided to set the ninjas to Lv60 and summon to Lv26 since Shichi is available somewhat later in the game. These values are very close to the low nin team benchmark.

For Shichi I, I found that for a reroll of 7, the team has a 0.7% chance to clear impossible, I could go higher, but 7 is really high already.
For Shici II, I found that for a reroll of 3, the team has a 1% chance to clear impossible, very competitive with low nin team. What's more the same team has only 0.2% clear chance with a Lv28 Nibi and a Guren-class hybrid as oppose to Ibiki-class (extra chakra allow stronger ninja). This means a hybrid damage team will prefer Shichibi over pure nin reroll summons.

I went through a ton of sims so I'm not going to show any of them. The bottom line is, adding endurance gives two possible balanced solutions:

Shichi I: +1 endurance/+2 crit dmg/+7 reroll
Shichi II: +2 endurance/+2 crit dmg/+3 reroll


I personally like Shichi II because all the bonus add up to 7, but either will probably work.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:30 PM   #23
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Dbana: Sanbi will probably get a boost, just need to work out how much is reasonable.

Firehydrant: Thanks for your hard work. I kind of prefer Shichi II too. It feels like it won't really attract full low nin seals as much as hybrids because of the lower reroll which is good. We had the +atk suggestion too, but for me Shichi II looks really interesting and a good choice for hybrids/balanced team. There is no real way to counter it's stats for other teams tho, but as endurance isn't THAT useful in BA and I guess a pretty niche team is required to actually take advantage of the reroll and crits it might be OK anyway!
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:09 PM   #24
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Udon, please do not go for Shichibi II. Some players have found usefulness for the +crit and reroll from Shichibi so cutting the reroll in half would not be a good idea.
From the start, Shichibi was 2 crit, 6 reroll so if anything you shouldn't make a big difference. If it needs rebalancing, then rebalance it, just don't screw it up from how it was in the start.
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:07 PM   #25
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You do realize this is a huge boost for Shichibi...? The crit is the same, and some reroll is still added. The difference in reroll will only get smaller and smaller because you reach 100 pretty fast.
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:15 PM   #26
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What udon says.

I can understand your complain if crit was being cut, but reroll is on a rapid diminishing return and saturates quickly for overly high values. On top of which, the initial jump in damage from reroll is so huge that it can easily become unbalanced for beginner difficulty. High reroll can potentially lead to Shichibi displacing SD for lower difficulty progression. (SD usually isn't used for higher diff progression due to chakra constraint)
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:16 PM   #27
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Actually, I don't realize how positive the difference would be. I don't understand how making the reroll as much as Nibi's is good for Shichibi.
In my opinion, Shichibi should always provide more reroll than SD. It would not be beneficial to the teams that rely on the reroll and crit dmg Shichibi gives.

I just feel that turning the whole concept of Shichibi hurts some parts of the game. (*sigh*)
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:19 PM   #28
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As I understand it, Shichi is suppose to be a viable WM progression summon for hybrid damage user.

I'm guessing you have a different concept of what Shichi is?
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:00 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbanaaa View Post
About Sanbi i really think he is underpowered for a 26 chakra summon i mean the difference between him and Gobi is only 4 chakra but Gobi has way better stats compared to Sanbi so i think he should be +4 Tai / +4 Endurace .
I suggest not comparing to the overpowered gobi who I think should be reduced to 3 tai, 3 nin. I think Sanbi should be boosted too. Compare 26 chakra to the 4 chakra toad who increases the same amount of tai. +3 tai +5 endurance
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:02 AM   #30
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Geez, Stop bashing Gobi since he's not overpowered.
His Stats are not immune to Katsuyu/Nikame and are just helping progress on the World Map.

If someone comes with Manda now im gonna smash him in the face .. <_< j/k
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:01 AM   #31
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I agree shitloads of reroll looks cool, but the teams that actually want to have a useful summon will pretty soon understand that the abundance of reroll does not make that much a difference at all. Especially if you do not even have a Full Nin Low Seal team (Which is when SD or Nibi, or even Gobi+reroll equip is used).

red-cloud, do you have any teams that are affected by this reduction in reroll?


If we take a look at Sanbi while letting some more ppl respond to this Shichibi-suggestion... Is +4 tai, +4 end too good? IIRC firehydrand did some testing with high seals where Reibi and sanbi did good. But high seals are pretty much neglected on fast world map progress anyway so... (and the test was between high seals only).
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:34 AM   #32
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Yes udon as i said +4 tai / +4 endurance for sanbi sounds very reasonable and make him a very good choice for high tai low seal teams and full high seal high tai teams .
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:39 PM   #33
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I will go for a hybrid Low Seal team and Shichi will become a staple just as SD, Kats, Gobi are for other progressors so I see no issue with a reduction in reroll for an endurance boost seeing as how there as now an abundance in reroll LW's.

Just a suggestion: but how about +3 reroll, +2 End, +3 Crit or +4 reroll, +2 End, +2 Crit? It's 8 points I know but considering how important a summon it will/could become I think it's justified.

As for Gobi, keep it as it is. Even though it is pretty powerful it's easily negatable as others have said.

As for Sanbi, +4 Tai, +4 End is perfect.
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:50 AM   #34
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Alright, let's get something straight here. I did not suggest +2 end/+2 crit/ +3 reroll because the numbers add up to 7. I suggested it because it balances a hybrid low seal team using shichibi against a low nin team using reroll summon. Adding one to any of those stats will definitely make the Shichibi team a good deal more powerful than the equivalent low nin team and make WM progression unbalanced.

Just so we're all clear here, Shichi II is an improvement to the original Shichibi for high difficulty WM progression. The exact same team using the original Shichibi would have had a 0.001% chance to beat kyuubi on impossible.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:17 PM   #35
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Sorry man I thought there may have been some sort of guideline you were working to ie: ck cost = stat amount possible.

Shichi II is the best option.
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:19 PM   #36
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I'm a HS lover and would be really happy if sanbi changes to +4tai/+4end... but i really think it's a bit overpowered for it's ck cost... just taking Gamabunta as reference, both have +4 tai... the fight now is between firedmg and end, and i think both have same "weight" as stats... end can help most in WM but can also help in BA ... firedmg will be useful mostly on BA. Of course it helps progressing world map but we all know that the true challenge of WM is only Kyuubi and on that, elemdmgs are unuseful =p In the end , endurance can help slightly better than frdmg (in my humbly opinion) and sanbi costs less ck than gamabunta =P Idk a solution to this , maybe sanbi with +4tai/+3end or something like that... =/

give your opinions please, i'm not that experienced =]
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:43 PM   #37
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If sanbi become +4 tai / +3 end then reibi will be overpowered compared to him since he costs lower chakra and his attack stats are not affected by immunities and the difference in endurace growth stats is only 1 per lvl so reibi wins , but waiting for more opinions on this as well especially from people who have tried him .
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:51 PM   #38
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If we go for Shichi II then the reroll will drop significantly. Supporters of this idea, don't you think that people will not favour Shichibi even more.
I mean if it was to be successful in WM, the reroll is dropping too much.
If a team wanted/needed endurance they would simply go for Sanbi or Rokubi. If reroll would be needed, SD is the favoured option. That leaves Shichibi trapped where only few teams would favour it. Those teams would get so little reroll, as much as a 24 chakra summon, and little endurance which can be matched by Reibi. It would benefit few ninjas and not others (maybe one needed endurance and another one needed reroll and another like KB needed crit dmg).
I'm just not convinced on how a distribution of little stats would help some teams.
I do not know worths of attributes but I think more reroll would be more effective.
How about +1 stamina, +2 crit dmg, +4/5 reroll?
Just explain the benefits of the proposed changes to Shichibi.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:44 AM   #39
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Right now I don't see Shichibi as useful to me. But if it were changed to Shichi II it would probably attract more players such as myself. I don't see why your arguing about it Cloud. Right now the only team I've seen with Shichibi is Udon so its obviously not popular as it is. Personally, I would make a team based on Shichibi as the summon if Udon changed it to +2 End, +2 Crit Dmg, + 3% Reroll.
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Old 04-14-2010, 04:01 AM   #40
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Alright let me post two more sims for people to chew on.

I've recently completed sims for some FNK-based high seal teams. Here are the ones for Reibi and Sanbi. Recall that the standard benchmark I use is a low nin team with Lv 59 ninjas and Lv 27 summon, which has a ~1% chance of clearing impossible. Once again, I only use six LWs, which are reasonably easy to pick up along the way to impossible.

Sim tool: Kyuubi Basher v1.2

Sanbi team:
3x FNG
1x starter jounin
1x Juugo
1x FNK
LWs: Zweihender, Coma Puncher, Zangetsu, Luna, Murasame, LM8 LW3
Ninja level 61, Sanbi level 27
0.65% chance to clear impossible, rises up to 2.5% for lv 62 ninjas.

Reibi team:
3x FNG
1x starter jounin
1x Guren
1x FNK
LWs: Zweihender, Zangetsu, Moonchaser, Luna, Murasame, LM8 LW3
Ninja level 60, Reibi level 27
0.8% chance to clear impossible

My recommendation: Sanbi doesn't need a boost. People are probably complaining about Sanbi because its tai is low compare to other summons around its chakra, but you have to remember that Sanbi really isn't a BA summon or even a low difficulty WM summon. Its a high difficulty WM summon and that's where endurance truly shine. I've tried redoing Sanbi to 3/3, but got horrible results. And if you shift it to 4/2, its basically a Reibi for WM purpose.

Reibi, on the other hand, should probably be changed. It performs very well on WM but it also performs way better than other summons of its chakra level for BA because its damage is un-immunizable. Way too much firepower for only 10 chakra. People who use Reibi can put in lots of high chakra ninja into their teams, who will then not only have unstoppable attack but also last longer because of endurance. Easiest way to fix this is probably just to convert its attack to some combination of tai/nin, unless of course, it was meant to be a low cost anti-immunity weapon. Honestly, I don't know what Reibi is suppose to be since its so good at so many things for the chakra cost.

You shouldn't compare anything to Gamabunta. Its been well established that Gama is too weak for its chakra cost and you can't do any kind of fair comparison against it. You should also look at more than just a summon's damage increase as well as think more about the true purpose of the summon. Sure Sanbi adds very little damage, but its endurance allow it perform its role as high difficulty WM summon. Just because Nibi adds 3 nin does not automatically mean Sanbi should add 3 tai.

Lastly, all you people coming on to complain about nerfs and buffs, is it really that much trouble for you to try Aenonar's simulator and check what affect your proposed changes have? Some of your idea doesn't even make sense in light of the evidence that have surfaced. If you want people to take your ideas seriously, the least you could do is provide some proof. Its not as if you have to write a simulator from scratch, Aenonar already did it for you.
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