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Old 06-17-2010, 09:22 PM   #21
Aenonar
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Lazy, keeping it to just low seal nibi vs high seal gobi. Plus my computer is cranky and only lets me open 2 windows at once, so I don't feel like swapping all the time <.< gobi on the low seal team is like ~5% behind....

The team and abilities were made for a low seal nin team with nibi, that's what it *should* do best.... So it has quite a few reroll stuff etc, but that doesn't matter for the Gobi high seal apparently...

lvl:
nibi:
gobi:

---------------------------------------------------------

20
2,767%
0,437%

21
3,502%
2,159%

22
4,496%
5,772%

23
5,546%
16,68%

24
6,84%
28,144%

25
8,119%
49,143%

26
9,958%
63,708%

27
11,664%
82,438%

28
13,532%
90,278%

29
16,06%
97,311%


--------------

33
27,387%
99,999%

34
30,833%
100%



Kat lvl 25
low: 3,161%
high: 1,714%

lvl 33
low: 10,612%
high: 99,416%

The high seal results are more equal to the spirit dragon in the end, except that you can't possibly fit in SD...
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:26 PM   #22
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Well, if not for the public posting of bugs found in the bugs section of the forums; I think a lot of bugs might not have been caught. Similar to the open discussion on bugs found while testing for clan wars, these public discussion of bugs found have led to udon not only being able fix things faster, but has also given him valuable feedback regarding certain bugs found in order to consider what he feels is the best way to fix it.

Anyway, obviously this can be a double edged sword, but we will just have monitor the type of reports coming in and filter out any that go into too much detail as to actually describe how to duplicate the bug in question, that much I can definitely agree with, should be sent to udon via a pm rather than written out publically on the forum. udon has already notified the mods to be more wary of situations like these, so we'll be sure to get rid of any such posts that go into that much detail.

About your decision to join/quit fsr/mi. I understand your reason for joining, but obviously, you know my thoughts on the group as a whole, especially in regards to the leadership that was in place at the time. I'd hardly say that the group was just about freedom of thought, and healthy discussion over game mechanics as what was written on their recruitment page. Those are just words, the way fsr was run clearly diverged from that. Won't go into this any further unless you disagree with this comment, and want to discuss it over pm since it's old news to me.

Regarding how a tool such as Aeno's could potentially have been improved with stuff fsr researched but didn't disclose. Well, just as a quick example... I'm sure that at some point, you guys were able to nail down the stamina penalty for mis-slotted ninjas, which I don't think has really been outlined exactly on the forums... not exactly the hardest thing to figure out, and Aeno probably already knows the formula, but if it was outlined and available, I'm sure it would have made it that much easier for him to possibly include the option to use mis-slotted ninjas into his simulation.

Disclaimer: I still haven't used his Kyuubi Sim, so if that's already an option, then woops. =P but I hope you get what I'm saying, small things like that could greatly improve the flexibility of a tool such as Aeno's sim, or just give food for thought on teams wanting to mis-slot jounins or kages when planning their team designs.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:47 PM   #23
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Ah yes, he has that option, as for the exact formula Ive always figured it was something anyone could do with simple math and posting it would just be spam on the forums >.<, if someone needs to figure it out, I could explain as well as plenty of other like minded people who play

but back to the topic at hand, based on the info Aeno just posted, it cleraly serves to my point that Ive made on others thread regarding Gobi compared to LS summons

Its always an exchange of being able to start Kyuubi faster, or waiting to level up your summon more (which at high levels can take a bit of time), to start getting a %, and given the nature of solid static dmg, the chunks in gains of %'s will always raise greater in each interval in comparison to LS

looking at the %'s Aeno listed, you could even go Lower than lvl 20 on a LS summon (probably 18/19) and start Kyuubi, while a Gobi wouldnt really start till 21, 20 if you love your luck
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:21 PM   #24
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Alright here's an issue I see with all of the gobi nerfing talk. We keep seeing all of these percentages for beating kyuubi showing the high seal gobi team to be dominating. The issue I have with this is sure, the high seal (more consistent) team will have a better percentage WHEN it can beat kyuubi because of its consistency. The low seal team no matter how high it gets will always still have a chance to fail miserably on rolls and lose. What the comparison should really be is at what lvls are both setups able to beat kyuubi at its earliest. If gobi is still winning there, then its more of an issue, but that isn't the case currently.

Nibi is lower in chakra cost than Gobi
Nibi should be a bit higher in level than Gobi because its available earlier
Low seal should still have a chance to beat kyuubi before high seal gobi can even fathom it

Check the numbers on the earliest times to beat kyuubi, and nibi should always have at least 1 level on gobi (id say it should have more but will probably get flamed for that)

*update* Aeno, edit that post up above to include the lower levels until both teams have no chance of beating kyuubi. Level 19, 18, 17, 16 so on so forth...
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:26 PM   #25
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I was almost going to start posting questions until I got to Aeno's post. Thank god you came to same conclusion I came to. I'm just surprised at how taken everyone was with Crystal's one data point comparison (nothing wrong with that data point btw, just wasn't the complete picture). And after all the sims I've posted..

I think somebody should write a guide on how to do simulations properly. There's probably hundreds of people who are mis-using KB. Maybe Aeno?

Of course, you could keep it hush-hush to limit the number of people who can use it correctly..
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:51 PM   #26
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So no one sees a problem with this? Really? Need to stop comparing Nibi vs Gobi, and compare it across the spectrum back when things were semi-balanced.

Kat lvl 25 (Red fox requirement - 32 chakra - Available earliest after Karakura Castle)
low: 3,161%
high: 1,714%

Nibi lvl 22: 4,496% (Silver - 24 chakra - Available earliest after 3rd Akatsuki Country)
Gobi lvl 22: 5,772% (Gold - 30 chakra - Available earliest after 4th Akatsuki Country)

Between these new summons and their low chakra cost, and quick access, along with the introduction of endurance and new powerful LWs, impossible mode has become somewhat of a joke to be honest.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:57 PM   #27
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the wm summons are well balanced and the arena summon does what it's supposed to do, congratulations to udon
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:35 AM   #28
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Spar- That argument doesn't make sense, Katsuya is an end game summon that was used for progression because of a lack of other better options. Both Nibi and Gobi are almost exclusively for progression.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:55 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udon View Post
I say add Minus Endurance what say You!

(with a minimum cap of 0 endurance this means high seals will be affected while low seals wont, unless they have +end wpns)

I dont know the statistics, but wouldn't it be easier to just add +little reroll to nibi/reroll summons rather than adding x reroll every y ninjutsu?
In Soviet Russia, Endurance Minus You!
Ok ok, that one was bad :(

As Aeno said, +reroll should also work.
(Just thought my idea could be kinda interesting , also making the xx - xx range a bit more stable - due to Taijutsu -).

About Gobi: 3/3 Would be also ok (for me, atleast).
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:27 AM   #30
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Gobi is strictly for progression. You will not see any serious threat campers with a Gobi summon.

The same goes for Manda. He's strictly for BA, you won't see any fast progressors with a manda summon.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:15 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFraychineaud View Post
Spar- That argument doesn't make sense, Katsuya is an end game summon that was used for progression because of a lack of other better options. Both Nibi and Gobi are almost exclusively for progression.
uhh, no kidding, now when would you like to talk about game balance?

Please reread my last post, and think about what's wrong with it regarding progression once you remove the notion about whether or not it was designed for BA or WM from the picture.

I'm done posting on this subject, as with most topics, either people get it, or they don't. I'm just hoping udon doesn't have this much trouble looking at the big overall picture, and what has clearly and obviously happened when comparing the timeframe of when the game started up until the introduction of the seal changes, and how the game has changed after.

I'm wasting too much time trying to convince people who have trouble looking at the larger picture which unfortunately, always seems to come from the group who claimed that they thrive on the pursuit of understanding "game mechanics" ironically. If you compare the steady, logical progression of the game prior to the updates to what it's become now, you'd be nuts to say that things are less broken now than before. You've been around long enough that you should be able to grasp the difference, but I guess not.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:38 AM   #32
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Sparhawk you are looking at summons strickly form a progression perspective, how is that at all looking the whole picture

The aspects currently of the game are WM and BA, which tie into progression and camping

each summon has pros and cons relating to each of these, and based off your numbers

Kats compared to Gobi
WM - Kats is slightly less effective at completing WM, 1 pt of avg dmg less, but Kats reduces opponents dmg, and in some cases can add an extra hit etc
BA - Kats is clearly superior (immunities and such), Gobi being the inverse, open to all forms of immunity and providing nothing extra
Camping - Kats is again clearly superior, any team using Gobi would be laughed at
Progression - Gobi definately wins out in comparison

Now of course there is other determinant factors in usefulness of summons that are generally overlook, not adding these into the discussion, just bringing them up to note them... The baiting effects for incoming challenges, the strength to win more or less matches, winning and losing effecting team exp which at higher amounts is a bane to teams attracting challenges, the cost of the summon allowing you to field more ninjas in your team at a time.... little things like this are some things to keep in mind also
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:50 AM   #33
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Quote:
If you compare the steady, logical progression of the game prior to the updates to what it's become now, you'd be nuts to say that things are less broken now than before.
I beg to differ on that account. As far as I remember, progression under the old system was far more chaotic because the only viable option for fast progression back then was low seal nin. There was nothing else that came even close. I can link you back to a post where kurogan posted his medium clear solution which is far superior to any solution that now exist (http://www.ninjamanager.net/showpost...4&postcount=96). If I remember correctly, SD was 4/6 when he made this clear. What that illustrated to me was that progression speed was pretty much all a matter of luck back then. Everyone clears at 1-2% chance of success and whoever got lucky first takes the lead. I don't know if that's what you consider steady and logical, and I don't know if that's what progression should be like, but I for one definitely don't like that kind of progression. LW hunting is chancy enough for me.
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:32 AM   #34
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@Firehydrant:

Manda was keeping up, and hybrids/high seal naturally took just a little bit longer than low seals. The team types were geared towards their specialties as they should have been, that being low seal reroll teams were obviously the ones who would be first to reach the >0% chance to complete the mode, while having costly drawbacks as a result. All other summons had their typical pros/cons, with high seals having a majority of the pros to outweight it's one major con which was slightly slower WM progression.

If you consider "fast progression" to be only the desire to frontrun, then yeah, the reroll teams were the only truly viable solution, but for the majority of teams out there, the difference in team types were not that drastic, the pros/cons made sense, and the modes actually seemed to scale well. Easy was considered easy, medium was considered medium, hard was considered hard, extreme would be extreme, and impossible was truly thought impossible. I remember the general consensus was that impossible was and should take close to a year if not longer, and now it's been reduced to being easily doable in about 4 months time... so yes, some BIG changes have occurred since the seal changes.
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Old 06-18-2010, 06:30 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
So no one sees a problem with this? Really? Need to stop comparing Nibi vs Gobi, and compare it across the spectrum back when things were semi-balanced.

Kat lvl 25 (Red fox requirement - 32 chakra - Available earliest after Karakura Castle)
low: 3,161%
high: 1,714%

Nibi lvl 22: 4,496% (Silver - 24 chakra - Available earliest after 3rd Akatsuki Country)
Gobi lvl 22: 5,772% (Gold - 30 chakra - Available earliest after 4th Akatsuki Country)

Between these new summons and their low chakra cost, and quick access, along with the introduction of endurance and new powerful LWs, impossible mode has become somewhat of a joke to be honest.
You REALLY consider needing 3 more levels on a MUCH later to get summon to be balanced? Son, I'm disappoint... Plus as already stated like 100 times, it doesn't matter when Low seals get 4.5%, what matters is when they get 1%, that is the actual lowest level to clear the game (unless you are REALLY lucky).
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:35 AM   #36
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Spar and Aeno mind sharing the setups you used ???

Just because i want to sim a few phantom summons:

6 nin 6 reroll summon
6 nin 10 reroll summon
3 nin 10 reroll summon
and e SD

Just to clear a few things.

Gobi sucks at baiting once it leveled you as a low seal eff up and drop with team xp naturally. Gobi can't use kono trio for baiting because it's fail.

Nibi has 3 less chakra for you to play with gobi has more HP to unlock.

As you advance on the WM for higher and higher HP that you need to devour you're prone to fail more often. A typical ninja would need 5-6 hits that are over the kill of damage resulting in a very low % of success.
4 4 6 6 6 6=32 hits that need to be over the cut off damage. If you search the internet for a little thing called conditional events you might get a little hint on what's happening. High seal need anyway 5%+chance because being high seal doesn't really help to achieve that max damage dreamed off thus adding extra lvls around 3-4 which from an extreme + viewpoint is a hell lot of time.

So please sim it with these phantom summons >.> nibi should have around 2 lvls on gobi aaaaand it's less chakra. Good to catch on that a late unlocking summon isn't healthy after hard.


Btw let's nerf everything in the game it should be fun >.> if you are realllly that pissed on gobi just put him in inner karakura. This is more like the cold war here ....
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:26 AM   #37
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Szilu: Gobi SHOULD suck at baiting, but I remember Killer Smiles gobi leveling like mad until like lvl 21 on extreme mode. I just barely finished before him (started 1 month earlier I think) and my Shichibi was lvl 26 by that time. Don't know if he's a good baiter/chat-exchanger, but it's not impossible at all to level Gobi on BA.


I think part of the problem lies in how far you can level your ninjas until your summon hits 20. If your ninjas are lvl 40 when your summon (Gobi, Nibi, whatever) is 20, then Gobi will just beat the crap out of everything. The FNK on impossible works like a mini-summon itself because it's so powerful, so if you can level it fast enough and reach lvl 50+ before your summon is 20 (while your other ninjas can still be 45 ish), then Gobi isn't really superior. But I seriously doubt the Gobi will only be lvl 20 by that time.

Large part lies in the Aka LWs too ;( I want to reduce drop to 0,03. Maybe further reduce drop chance to 0,02 for impossible teams...?
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:14 PM   #38
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Baiting isn't an issue if you have a whole clan to back you up i was emphasizing that he isn't all the way cakes.

About the LW as far as i remember forsaken agreed about reducing the drop rates and had a few suggestions as well.

0.03 would be better for those LW so i have to agree on that even if i don't like it ... you could ask forsaken and Cfray about this as well can't talk in their name

the front runners got their fun with it but after all, they should be the ones who see these facts, tho it doesn't affect them on impossible not many plan to have a guardian drop because of the drop rate but it could be fair i haven't seen the LW to have an objective response on that

Other drawback i found in the game is the bijuu island with the LW ... got all of them except Siegfried could there be any new ones added or something ... ?
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:40 PM   #39
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Quote:
Manda was keeping up, and hybrids/high seal naturally took just a little bit longer than low seals.
I have not seen any evidence that Manda was keeping up so you'll have to provide some before I can believe you.

Quote:
If you consider "fast progression" to be only the desire to frontrun, then yeah, the reroll teams were the only truly viable solution, but for the majority of teams out there, the difference in team types were not that drastic
First of all progression is about speed, there are few people progressing right now (or before) who doesn't want to get there as soon as possible. Secondly, there was a drastic difference between team types, which is very easy to prove with the simulator by taking off high seal's endurance bonus and using a katsuyu. Once again, if you want me to believe the difference was small you'll have to show me evidence.

Quote:
Gobi SHOULD suck at baiting, but I remember Killer Smiles gobi leveling like mad until like lvl 21 on extreme mode. I just barely finished before him (started 1 month earlier I think) and my Shichibi was lvl 26 by that time. Don't know if he's a good baiter/chat-exchanger, but it's not impossible at all to level Gobi on BA.
You're applying extreme mode results to impossible. There are two very simple reasons why Gobi outdid Shichibi for your team. 1) Shichibi was designed for low seal, hybrid damage, as I recall you had only two true hybrid damage ninja. (mixing pure tai and pure nin does not give you the same results as having true hybrid tai/nin) The result would have been very different had you had a full team (of course you have to put more into the game first). You probably would have had better results with SD given that particular team. 2) Shichibi was balanced for impossible, like all summons with endurance bonus they do progressively worse going down in difficulty. Gobi, as a pure damage type, has the exact opposite behavior, it does progressively worse going up in difficulty. The cross-over happens in extreme.

If you do some sims, you'll see that Gobi fails pretty hard in impossible compare to Shichibi, especially with hybrid damage ninja like Rikudou.

As for Killer Smile, that's antony's team, the co-clan leader of BW. He's the farthest along of all BW players, why wouldn't we support him within the rules of the game. I doubt it would have made much difference whether his summon was Gobi, Nibi, or Shichibi.

You are going to screw up a lot of things really fast if you nerf Gobi now, so the least you can do is check all the facts and make sure things actually work the way people claim they do before you do anything drastic.
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehydrant View Post
If you do some sims, you'll see that Gobi fails pretty hard in impossible compare to Shichibi, especially with hybrid damage ninja like Rikudou.
changed the stats of the ninjas to give a rough 50/50 balance. Messed up a little though since I had nibi on at that time, so a little too much tai, but meh....

lvl 27

nin-kame - 0,052%
reibi - 1,594%
ichibi - 0,012%
nibi - 3,792%
sanbi - 5,292%
yonbi - minus 30%
gobi - 24,237%
Katsuyuu - 9,299
Manda - team isn't built for it. But visi has played manda for a long time, and held up well.
gamabunta - 0,123%
SD - 45,686%
Rokubi - 0,719%
shichibi - 15,339%
shinigami - minus 15%
hachibi - 27,961%
kyuubi - 0,024%
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