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Old 06-18-2010, 01:57 PM   #41
udon
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I never questioned Shichibis ability in my post, just the fact that the baiting/leveling Gobi didn't seem to be much of a problem for him (who I kept my eye on because he used Tobi and was closing in on my team). I don't see how baiting/leveling your summon is different on the two difficulties, except that it might take a bit longer to get gobi compared to getting nibi, and shichibi compare to gobi and so on. I hadn't thought of the clan influence, so I don't know exactly how many extra challenges a clan leader/best team can get from friends. Maybe it's about the same as chat-exchanging.

Though it's true I probably wouldn't advice anyone to use Shichibi with the little experience I have using him. Didn't really get any good % when trying out the summons with the basher either.

Calm down, I haven't really done changes/nerfs the same moment I heard complaints (hi Manda)...
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:04 PM   #42
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Just want to state a fact that numbers alone do not reveal a lot..

My Killersmile (lvl 21 Gobi - extreme - hybrid) with 4-7%, wasted 1 week WE (excluding 3 days' claim of top ladder WE prizes)
whereas, my hard mode team (lvl 14 SD) finished with 2 days WE with a chance of 1.5 - 1.7 %
also i found that Tihoa's (lvl 16 Gobi - hard - all HS) 1.5% always end up with 400 hp short for the 2 days he tried
and we could even say that in impossible 10% of Hybrid gobi will not kill the kyuubi in 10 tries

and gobi with a hybrid/low seal team is a fail for progression/baiting. A gobi which couldnt kill the kyuubi with a lvl 18 gobi & lvl 42 ninjas, is fair enough to be in the game where a lvl 14 SD with lvl 38-39 ninjas could kill in a day or two.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:06 PM   #43
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Ok, will really be my final rant now. Most of it is for udon to read, cause I know you guys will just stubbornly disagree anyway.

Honestly, I don't care whether things get nerfed or not, I wasn't saying nerf gobi to screw over the "#1 recruited" summon ever since the seal changes and introduction of the bijuu summons. My argument is that things in general have changed drastically since the seal changes, a heavy reason being the introduction of endurance/crit, bijuu summons, and LWs. Again, what used to be considered taking a year or more to complete has now become easily feasible to do in 4 months, that is something I'm sure udon was not expecting. A level 20+ summon used to be what was needed just to barely have a shot at completing hard mode, now we're saying that's all we need to complete IMPOSSIBLE? Wake up, and look at the big picture. While all this number crunching has helped semi-balance the seal changes and whatnot, now in the aftermath, we need to look at what all these changes have done to gameplay, and it's made things a lot worse. You guys are just so stuck on numbers and stuff that you aren't looking at the overall picture as I've been repeatedly saying. Please note that, I'm not mad even if I might sound it, I'm just not easy to persuade unless I can really agree with someone's point.

@Firehydrant: I've never been a huge math and number person, I don't really use them that often to back up my claims. My claims come from experience, and seeing what's going on. The fact that the above point regarding progression escapes all of you shows that numbers, while great for some things, doesn't always help when looking at the big picture is what's needed. As far as progression goes, please don't think that all progressors are only interested in "front running". While many forum goers might be, I'm pretty sure the majority are realistic enough to know that, if I start today, or if after all this time I am only in easy mode or just starting hard, then obviously, I'm not hitting that top 10 hall of fame anytime soon. Rather, I would assume that most players are just interested in progressing to unlock better FNs and LWs and just having a team that they enjoy using but won't "suck". And again, just because I don't have numbers to prove that Manda was working; it was definitely working, I don't need everything laid out on paper to recognize what's working and what's not. And another thing, given that we know that Manda has the best baiting potential of all the summons, that's just another benefit not mentioned that helped it stay on par with low seal teams which was the fad back then. It should be obvious why.

Per all this talk about: Well this summon was made for WM, and this summon sucks at baiting... again, you guys are not viewing the larger picture which is... the game has become so freaking easy it's not even funny. Does it make sense that I'm arguing against something that would help me beat impossible down the road even easier? I argue because the game went from one which could easily take 2 years or more to complete all the modes, into one that only takes a year. The transparancy of the game from all these guides and tools, and now the gameplay becoming so different than what originally made it successful is what's going to hurt the game in the long run, and I'm hoping udon realizes that. It's like collectible card games, where they keep introducing more and more broken cards to keep players interested, it only ends up ruining things in the long run. I remember warning udon of this prior to the introduction of legendary march even.

@sirdarts: Like I said, I'm not into number crunching myself, so I went off what aeno provided. In any case, regardless of when either summon reaches >0%, that doesn't address the problem I already outlined regarding how a lvl 20s summon being all that's needed to complete Impossible is pretty ridiculous for any serious players looking at how the game was prior to the introduction of the seal changes and bijuu summons and comparing it objectively to the aftermath.

I'm going to speak in general, because I have no idea how Aeno is calculating his sims, since the chakra cost of SD for example, is way higher than most of the summons, and I'm assuming he used the same lineup for all his sims. So the percentages for the higher chakra cost summons might be a bit inaccurate.

Anyway, moving on to what I think is getting overlooked. I'm gonna talk about reibi/nibi/sanbi/gobi. While a lot of you are saying that well... gobi sucks for baiting and what not, again, realize that these summons cost a lot less chakra than the previous combat summons and are unlocked FAR EARLIER than them as well. Now, speaking from experience which you guys should have by now, since most of you are on hard+, but are omitting in your arguments or are just overlooking entirely: what is the breaking point when challenges dwindle?

Here's the answer: Red Fox. It's easy to get tired/exhausted every day from Gold Star and down. Do I have numbers to back that up? No, but it's pretty damn obvious, and if you want to argue against that, then whatever.

So what does this mean? That being able to acquire an END GAME summon at gold star or below is really beneficial, because you are almost guaranteed to level it into the 20s in no time, I don't care how bad it is for baiting. Compared to the past, where the combat summons were the only viable options, it forced you to break into the red fox rank which brought with it very little challenges, and guess what? Just getting to red fox rank was a chore in itself, and by the time you got to red fox, now your ninjas are so high in level, that even with a weak summon, few players would want to attack you. Compare that to now, where you can pick up a nibi or whatever bijuu summon and have ninjas that are only in their late 10s, early 20s; it presents ample opportunity to draw challenges. Stop acting like just because it's not ideal for drawing challenges, it's actually hard to level. Leveling these bijuu summons are a cinch to anyone looking at things in an honest fashion. Why the heck do you think completing impossible mode has gone from taking possibly over a year, to about 4 months?

Done with this discussion. I'll be stubborn with my view, and others can be stubborn about theirs. If people want to discuss things further with me, you can shoot me a pm on chatango or something.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:47 PM   #44
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Let me say it clearly: Gobi is NOT overpowered.

Reason has already been said, the thing is about seal, high seal and low seal.
While low seal can finish the game earlier with low %, high seal will finish the game (much) later with 100% chance. Got it?
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:04 PM   #45
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It's OP due to that you can get it much earlier that the other summons, which aren't anywhere near as strong as Gobi as well that they cost more chakra. That ain't right.
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:35 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
It's OP due to that you can get it much earlier that the other summons, which aren't anywhere near as strong as Gobi as well that they cost more chakra. That ain't right.
You get it later then Nibi, who is still faster. It is quite hard to get without perfect elements.
SD is still MUCH faster than Gobi - Hard needs Gobi 18-19, SD 13 for example.
Gobi only makes Katsuyu less used for progression (Manda is still used the same, Gama is never used). And makes HS and hybrid teams at least a bit competitive in progression - they are still slower but not by months but by weeks.
And once and for all: Don't make simulations with full LS teams on 4%, they don't need 4%, they need 1%.
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:55 PM   #47
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Aeno you didn't complain about akatsuki temple extreme LW o.o,,

@Spar
You do realize that at the current state of the game you have more teams playing; you have higher level ninjas around that means more challenges and ninja xp.
Don't hide the fact that you profited as well out of it you couldn't have a that high level team if you were playing by standards 1 year ago or 2 years ago ...
Common sense doesn't always work that's why math is around for everyone, yes manda has crazy baiting potential and were suggested a few options for him ...
Gold camping at some point you sacriffice wins 50% of them just to get challenges don't get so cheesy that you are guaranteed to be exhausted !!! On higher difficulties if you camp gold too much you won't have access to akatsuki temple drops ... and the drop rates will be a bit lower.

And a new hybrid team just to make SD look better with the win % ... i asked if you could feed the phantom summons in the simulator ... or make the phantom team public....

*Last post till we can have the phantom team to sim it with those obviously overpowered low seal summons on a low seal heavy nin team which i suggested a few posts ago
I really like team Spar and Aeno
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:15 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirDarts View Post
You get it later then Nibi, who is still faster. It is quite hard to get without perfect elements.
SD is still MUCH faster than Gobi - Hard needs Gobi 18-19, SD 13 for example.
Gobi only makes Katsuyu less used for progression (Manda is still used the same, Gama is never used). And makes HS and hybrid teams at least a bit competitive in progression - they are still slower but not by months but by weeks.
And once and for all: Don't make simulations with full LS teams on 4%, they don't need 4%, they need 1%.
and this is to reinforce darts' point. this is what 1.5% team gets you constantly with a HS team


NOTE: this is with a ton of LWs equipped
http://www.ninjamanager.com/teams/53720
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:27 PM   #49
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This only strengthens the "nerf-gobi" people point. I mean seriously, a high seal team with 37.6 avg levels should be able to beat hard or have a 1.5% chance. This is just ridiculous. Many low seal/high nin teams needed to be well over 40.
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:38 PM   #50
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you guys know that 1% for low seal means the same as 1% for high seal?
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:40 PM   #51
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wow ... should it be mentioned that his summon is lvl 17 and the lvl 40 low seal/high nin team you are talking about just need a lvl 13 SD

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you guys know that 1% for low seal means the same as 1% for high seal?
i strongly disagree ...
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:43 PM   #52
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And don't forget that he has 3 Hard high tier LWs and some other high tier LWs from lower difficulties which is not a normal case.
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:47 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonyredeemed View Post
i strongly disagree ...
i demand an explanation!
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Old 06-18-2010, 06:00 PM   #54
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LWs equipped on my team
http://www.ninjamanager.com/teams/53720

Beginner
Gemstone Shield - 22.25
Luna Sword - 49.5
Tornado Edge - 29

Easy
Dragonbone - 37.2
Murasame - 51.45

Medium
Coma Puncher - 30.5
Daedalus Lance - 35.7

Hard
Chaos Blade - 37.125
Cosmic Blade - 39
Zangetsu - 43

Total Boost of Attack Value from Equipped LWs according to Teamish's guide (http://www.ninjamanager.net/showthread.php?t=6231)
374.725

EDIT:
keep in mind that Teamish's guide is heavily biased towards immunity as well and overestimates the effects of immunity as it is.

someone try to run a comparison to this team? full LS with similar LWs
http://www.ninjamanager.com/teams/1169
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:35 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiKai View Post
i demand an explanation!
one word: re-roll

if you have SD/nibi & the sim shows 1.5% - you can hope to win. ask any SD users
for the contrary, you can see my post on previous page
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Old 06-18-2010, 07:43 PM   #56
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@Szilu: What the heck are you trying to say as usual?

Quote:
You do realize that at the current state of the game you have more teams playing; you have higher level ninjas around that means more challenges and ninja xp.
No duh, I've personally stated that many times in the past. Your insight is remarkeable. Now what does leveling "faster" have to do with the requirements for the modes having dropped drastically? Being able to level to 40 faster than you could 3-4 months ago justifies the sudden drop in requirements to complete a mode such as impossible? Rhetorical, don't want to hear your answer... I've read enough nonsense posts already

Quote:
Don't hide the fact that you profited as well out of it you couldn't have a that high level team if you were playing by standards 1 year ago or 2 years ago ...
uhh... profited? Now wtf are you trying to say with this pointless statement? Was everyone who played ninjamanager suppose to stop leveling their teams the second I resetted from Hard mode? Either clarify your position better, or don't use words like "profited". That word should be used more for your clan who "profited" off of xp glitches that they conveniently didn't report until all the bickering within the clan caused it to implode. See the difference? And I didn't know I completed hard 1-2 years ago. Thank you for clarifying. I'll let udon know that the date ninjamanager is stating that I started hard mode is incorrect. If you mean I was able to fight teams that were higher leveled than what was available 3-4 months prior, then... well no shit sherlock. Please refer to your first statement and take a moment to reflect.

Quote:
Gold camping at some point you sacriffice wins 50% of them just to get challenges don't get so cheesy that you are guaranteed to be exhausted !!! On higher difficulties if you camp gold too much you won't have access to akatsuki temple drops ... and the drop rates will be a bit lower.
I didn't say you're guaranteed to be exhausted, but it's quite easy to get tired. Red foxes rarely get tired, especially when their ninjas are overleveled as a result of just trying to get to red fox or as far as SD. If you compare the # of challenges and wins you get leveling a summon and camping at Gold to what you'd get upon acquiring a combat summon or SD, uhh... you'd be stupid not to notice a huge difference. Have you even progressed at all? Or are you fashioned into the same mold as Poker/Pwanto are, and so all you can do is ask for more bijuu items to be added?

Quote:
And a new hybrid team just to make SD look better with the win % ... i asked if you could feed the phantom summons in the simulator ... or make the phantom team public....
I don't do sims; read what's being said better, and stop asking me pointless questions, and then using them as arguments.
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:25 PM   #57
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antony dont make me cry :| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:56 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by KaiKai View Post
antony dont make me cry :| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage
sorry Kai... i cant help you there

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There are 3 kinds of people in the world, those who can count and those who can't!
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:08 PM   #59
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Either way the stats posted on the first post mean nothing. Like I've heard Kaikai say "calc the lvl needed for 1-2% win chance, the rest is pointless." LS is able to complete the game before HS. So why on earth does Gobi need to be nerfed or Nibi and SD need to be improved? SD was OP before you nerfed him, isn't that the reason you nerfed him in the first place. If SD is improved the LS SD team will be OP as always. Gobi is the only thing close to match SD's finishing time. A high seal team has more consistent damage than a LS team so obviously at higher levels the HS team will be able to beat Kyuubi more consistently, however, LS teams have inconsistent damage so they can beat Kyuubi earlier at a less consistent rate

Well... Udon if you nerf Gobi will you please make an announcement a month before :O? That way people will have time to adjust their teams because honestly lowering his stats at all will make him useless compared to Kats or SD.

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Old 06-18-2010, 10:39 PM   #60
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Oh Spar, I thought #44 was your final rant.

Well some things you've said I just can't leave alone so here we go,

Quote:
Again, what used to be considered taking a year or more to complete has now become easily feasible to do in 4 months
Actually, its closer to 3 months. But it was never going to take a year to begin with and I could prove it easily with sims, but I guess you don't like those. I notice you lay a lot of blame on the new seal system, endurance/crit, summons. But in reality the biggest reason impossible will be as short as it will be is because of two things.

1) FNK

2) A-T LW

That's it, none of the rest of the factors you named comes even close to those two in shortening the amount of time needed to clear. Why can I assert this with such confidence? Because low-nin is still the fastest way to clear impossible. All the extra endurance high sealers got, all the summons that's been released did not make high sealers faster than low-nin. Hybrid is able to pull along at the same speed as low-nin thanks to Gobi and only when using good rerollers. (speaking of which, Gobi won't be enough when you hit impossible) In other words, low-nin remains the standard yardstick for fast clear. Aside from the said two items, the only change that boosted low-nin is the seal bonus on crit, but low-nin couldn't care less. You following me so far?

FNK had always been there even before the new updates, and it was a low-nin one no less. This mean, the one addition that is almost solely responsible for the change in impossible (and extreme) clear speed is A-T LW. Yet, I haven't seen a single call for a nerf of the said LWs.

You probably won't believe me, but all your calls about progression being gimped has been mis-directed. All along, the A-T LWs have been the biggest, most important culprit. But do you think they'll nerf them? Probably not.


Quote:
Wake up, and look at the big picture. While all this number crunching has helped semi-balance the seal changes and whatnot, now in the aftermath, we need to look at what all these changes have done to gameplay, and it's made things a lot worse.
I don't deny that you've been playing longer or that you have lots of front runner experience. But let me interject with two counter facts.

1) You never ran extreme (if you did I apologize)

2) You started camping before the new seal system was implemented

You accuse us of not being able to see the whole picture and I disagree. We do very much see the whole picture, we just see the picture differently than you do and we choose to back up our views with hard numbers and, where applicable, experience. I am a common sense guy, who happened to be armed with math. I am all for using actual gameplay experience to look at the whole picture. But when the math tells you straight in the face that you are wrong, you have to be willing to consider the possibility that maybe you do not get the whole picture.

You say we're over-reliant on sims, but what is this game we're playing if not made from math, numbers, and code? Why then would it not make sense to analyze it with math, numbers, and code?


Quote:
Rather, I would assume that most players are just interested in progressing to unlock better FNs and LWs and just having a team that they enjoy using but won't "suck". And again, just because I don't have numbers to prove that Manda was working; it was definitely working, I don't need everything laid out on paper to recognize what's working and what's not.
Fair enough with regards to progression. But as for the Manda business, I have ever only seen one incidence when a Manda is used for progression and it was on a rather low difficulty. I do not remember how that team fare so it must not have been interesting to me. My experience directly contradicts yours (not using numbers here). Given that no Manda team is in the front running, it's only natural that I be suspicious about your claim. Since you won't use numbers to back up your claim or images of team clear I guess we're at a stale mate.
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