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Old 06-17-2010, 05:53 PM   #1
CrystalDragon
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Default The great Headache: Gobi

Hiii there fellow ..ah well just all!

Aeno (Just mentioning him here without being allowed too, rawr!) tested Gobi & Nibi on his Team (fictional Level 50, High Seal & Low Seal).

(No Item changes in the process, certain LW's avaible like Garuda, Kali Blade or Terrorizer and a few more)

I re-checked what he said and we came to the following:


His Team on Level 50 / HS 19 and a Level 27 Gobi (108 Tai / 81 Nin)
would be able to defeat Kyuubi on Impossible with an incredible Chance of of 82%~

On the other Hand, the whole Team on Seal 1 - still with Gobi - and no Item Changes had about 9,7% Chance to beat Kyuubi

Then again, i tried the Same Team, Same items, Seal 1 with a
Level 27 Nibi (81 Reroll / 81 Ninjutsu) and it had 11,8% Chance to beat Kyuubi

Thus, it just leaves me saying Gobi is broken & overpowered.

My solution/idea for this
(I will say it from the start, i didnt do the Math on it and i would ask you theorycrafters to try it. Also udon, would be nice if you could check this):

Bringing Gobi down to 3 Taijutsu / 2.5 Ninjutsu (or 3/2). This would make Gobi a nice temporary summon, costing slightly less than Katsuyu, without the immunity.

Also i would suggest giving Reroll, kinda something like a "hidden" bonus.
Example: Each 50 Reroll you gain a certain amount of Nin or Tai/Nin. ( +5 or splitted into +2/+2). This would boost Low Seal Teams that choose Reroll.

Why i think this is important and why there is such a big difference in Gobi & Nibi? Well, as you see the Ninjutsu is the same on both on Level 27.

On gobi you gain 108 Taijutsu for each Ninja on your team (Which would equal 648 Tai = 324 Pure dmg ..each hit!)

On the other Hand nibi only grants 81 Reroll on this Level for every ninja on your Team. The loss of Taijutsu is so huge that you just screw up your damage.


Please let this go trough your mind and tell me what you think :)
Regards and Greets, CrystalDragon/Eclair

Edit for Spar: My Statements about Aeno's statements and statistics are 100% accurate :P We just talked about this 10-15 Minutes ago on Chatango PM~

We both tried it with Basher 1.3 and v2.0. Double-checked everything so far~
I'm sure he will post later when he has time :)
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:00 PM   #2
KaiKai
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gobi > nibi, nothing new o_O
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:11 PM   #3
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Not sure how accurate your statements about what Aeno said are since this is my first time hearing these "statistics", but as I have mentioned in the past; most recently in the clan skill tree thread (shameless plug), http://www.ninjamanager.net/showpost...8&postcount=10, one of my offtopic thoughts was indeed that Gobi is just leagues better for WM in comparison to all other summons. While many keep claiming that it's counter is mainly the fact that in BA it wouldn't be as useful, that hardly makes sense to give it nearly the same boost as Manda for WM without any of the drawbacks. The fact that is costs 1 less chakra and is obtainable at gold rank only compounds it's dominance.

Personally, if I was progressing at the moment, it would have been a no brainer to use Gobi, although many low seal trend followers are still using Nibi/SD to go with what's tried and tested by the frontrunners. Contrary to what many claim being that Gobi was made for "hybrid" ninjas, that's just flawed logic. Gobi benefits all ninja types pretty equally, especially in regards to WM. For WM or BA, it offsets many weaknesses of all teams, and even for a full blown low seal team, like Crystal mentioned, the huge boost in tai gets rid of one of it's original major drawbacks, that being lack of consistent damage when factored across all six ninjas. This was the reason why full low seal teams needed reroll so badly.

Gobi get's rid of that need, and you're left with consistent damage with the potential to score massive hits.

If anything, the seal changes are what gave the biggest boost to hybrid ninjas, not summons like Gobi.

[Edit in response to CrystalDragon's Edit]: Then Aeno is a newb, and nootz-bot is going to finish impossible before him. D;
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:21 PM   #4
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currently, lvl 52, with 25 gobi, 400 and 800s, no 3rd slot

HS - 5700 - 8400 dmg
LS - 1200 - 9500 dmg

post which ninjas have what LWs so we can do the test as well
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:34 PM   #5
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I say add Minus Endurance what say You!

(with a minimum cap of 0 endurance this means high seals will be affected while low seals wont, unless they have +end wpns)

I dont know the statistics, but wouldn't it be easier to just add +little reroll to nibi/reroll summons rather than adding x reroll every y ninjutsu?
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:35 PM   #6
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low seal nibi 11,8%
low seal gobi 9,7%
high seal gobi 82,4% omgwtfbbq?

just fixing the %..

Oh yeah, I feel kinda ripped off atm when I just happened to give it a try in the basher... ;o


+ reroll to the summons might work out.. Though gobi + high seal would still be way above. Either something with endurance or a 3/3 fix, Gobi is already just 0,5 damage under manda, but no side effects etc for WM progression
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
low seal nibi 11,8%
low seal gobi 9,7%
high seal gobi 82,4% omgwtfbbq?

just fixing the %..

Oh yeah, I feel kinda ripped off atm when I just happened to give it a try in the basher... ;o


+ reroll to the summons might work out..
The 0% i got with the the las t 2 tries was without changing the item order or anything. Just Seal 1 there ;)
You probably had Seal 19 in basher still?
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:39 PM   #8
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a high seal team cant fail omgwtf thats why they have a high % -___-"

who gets 1% win chance earlier, high seal gobi or low seal gobi?
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
low seal nibi 11,8%
low seal gobi 9,7%
high seal gobi 82,4% omgwtfbbq?
getting a solid 10% on low seal is actually really good, considering leveling of LS adds small chunks of %, while HS is 0% for a long while

try reducing summon levels 1 by 1 and youll see what im talking about

ex: (figures pulled outta my ass)
3 summon levels lower might show changes like
low seal nibi 8,8%
low seal gobi 7,7%
high seal gobi 24,4%

and the trend would continue untill LS has a small %, while Gobi is flat out 0

Edit:
So I wouldnt create another post to say this.... Katashi go feed your post count somewhere else, your not contributing nothing, nor offering suggestions, senseless spam dosent help anything
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:58 PM   #10
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actually gobi is not so good... if some ninja will have even 50% nin/tai immune gobi is screwed up... even if he seems to be very good he is holy shit affected by immunity... so to make him a bit interesting there should be a new stat -nin/tai immunity and maybe add -0.25 tai immunity and -0.25 nin immunity to gobi... so if I am right immunity affects WM monsters too so gobi won't be so OP... as for nibi he is allready very good because he has just -1 ninjutsu and -2 reroll vs SD witch costs 8 chakra more
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
low seal nibi 11,8%
low seal gobi 9,7%
high seal gobi 82,4% omgwtfbbq?
lol, I'm using this as semi-proof to my claim long ago that low seal teams and high seal and hybrid teams were not that far apart to begin with in terms of progression, and that the old system that was in place had a relatively fair set of pros/cons all things considered.

The introduction of endurance to "help" out high seal teams was unnecessary, and is part of the cause of this wide disparity.

Anyway, I guess adding -endurance would help get rid of that massive difference, however it still doesn't solve the issue that Gobi is just too good for WM to begin with which is why I was complaining about it prior to its implementation... Aeno, can you test using the combat summons for comparison sake? I'd like to see how those fare in relation to equally leveled nibi's and gobi's which have become the new craze.

Who ignored my explanations as to why things were already pretty well balanced and instead listened to the massive hybrid/high seal whiners who were basing everything on theorycraft since they didn't progress or play both team types, and ended up boosting high seals anyway... *looks at history*

*RASENGANS udon in the face* You!

(Disclaimer: You're the one who wanted more role play. Please don't ban me. )
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:00 PM   #12
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Yeah, as forsaken said. There is NO reason to test levels where a low seal Nibi has 11% success. Low seal teams finish with 1-2%! And as KaiKai said, what counts is the levels when they reach 1% - not to mention that hybrids and high seals mostly need 2+% due to the fact that it is harder for them to hit high damage.

After you do THESE tests, start talking about OP Gobi.

And btw, as I said in the chat, low seals are much harder to run on Extreme+ as you need more hits = your ninjas have more chances to screw up, thus also taking other difficulties into account (with the same 1-2% as the important value) would be nice.

Don't nerf before you have all these numbers unless you want to screw high seal progression once again.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:06 PM   #13
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I almost would rather not know the answer, unless it's drastically different... as I mentioned in the past regarding Aeno's robust simulators, while they are really great... it takes a lot of guesswork out of the game.

At least for me, that would make things pretty boring... I mean, knowing that picking X summon will be the quickest and surest path to completing the game based off Aeno's pure mathematics and simulations, why would I choose anything else? Takes an important aspect of fun out of the game which should be trying what you personally think will work best in the end and then executing it and hoping you didn't miss anything in your calculations. I know that when I moved through the modes, each time I completed one after trying various things like moving LW around, or hunting certain LW, and planning before starting the mode... by the time I was able to finish the mode, it brought with it a great deal of satisfaction.

Having everything planned out for you and using calculators to knowthe exact chance to win from the getgo really takes away some of that accomplishment that some people might get if they're like me.

Anyway, maybe Aeno can share his results with just udon, and they can balance accordingly... just to not spoil the game for others, or for anyone who might share my opinion regarding this.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:11 PM   #14
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Well Sparhawk the data should be shared so that discussions can continue on the subject, luckily posting it wont take the fun from you, since your not progressing on either of your teams anyway, as for anyone else, they do not have to read if they dont want to
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:18 PM   #15
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Theres a reason why Gobi > Nibi..
Nibi = 12 chakra & meant for LS teams
Gobi = 15 chakra & meant for HS teams (imo)
I think it should stay like this. :)
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
I almost would rather not know the answer, unless it's drastically different... as I mentioned in the past regarding Aeno's robust simulators, while they are really great... it takes a lot of guesswork out of the game.

At least for me, that would make things pretty boring... I mean, knowing that picking X summon will be the quickest and surest path to completing the game based off Aeno's pure mathematics and simulations, why would I choose anything else? Takes an important aspect of fun out of the game which should be trying what you personally think will work best in the end and then executing it and hoping you didn't miss anything in your calculations. I know that when I moved through the modes, each time I completed one after trying various things like moving LW around, or hunting certain LW, and planning before starting the mode... by the time I was able to finish the mode, it brought with it a great deal of satisfaction.

Having everything planned out for you and using calculators to knowthe exact chance to win from the getgo really takes away some of that accomplishment that some people might get if they're like me.

Anyway, maybe Aeno can share his results with just udon, and they can balance accordingly... just to not spoil the game for others, or for anyone who might share my opinion regarding this.
That's different for everyone - but you are right - That's also why Aeno mentioned on the chat that he isn't sure about releasing v2.0 at all.

I felt it was necessary to open atleast 1 Thread with detailed Infos about the statistics. I think Aeno *will* or *does* check his results with udon mainly (and me :D). After all, i am the one that opened the thread :P
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:32 PM   #17
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@Forsaken1337:

Regardless of my plans, current or future, whether I choose to progress later on doesn't mean that my view of it has no bearing. I say it only because there may be others who share the same view when it comes to a strategy game such as this one, and it's something for udon to keep in mind as more and more of this game becomes rather transparent through tools such as the Legendary Weapons Guide, World Map Guide, and now the Kyuubi Basher. I personally was semi against the LW guide, as it made the team upgrade completely useless, but in the end, it's up to udon to decide what he wants to let pass or not especially in regards to how it will affect future players who are starting the game.

I would say that bugs and glitches should be what's shared and discussed, to be fixed. But that doesn't quite happen as often as it should, especially with your former clan, who prized such relatively unknown secrets. If I recall, they also heavily prided themselves at gathering actual game mechanics that they didn't share, or discuss with others contrary to your claim about how public discussion is so important now. Please don't take that as a personal attack, I'm merely noting your poor choice of affiliation given that now you are saying information ideally should be shared. While you seem to value public knowledge and healthy discussion, joining fsr obviously diverged from that. I personally think that if you are in the pursuit of knowledge, public discussion is and always will be the fastest way to develop it. Not keeping the data in-clan like your former clan.

The development of the guides and tools available to the public are clear examples of the results of public discussion. Now just think of how much more robust the tools available would have been had your former clan decided to offer out some of their findings rather than just hording and profiting off information released freely by others.

[Edit] And to further back up my claim to Aeno that he's a newb. Just think about how far ahead you would be from all of us had you not released your WM Guide, and Kyuubi Basher. ;) While you might be trying to break the trend of nice guys finishing last by finishing first... you're gonna have to overcome the botlord and all the others taking you on using your very own tools to boost their chances either by a ton or even very little.

newb.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:32 PM   #18
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some random numbers for the lulz,

fn, starter, fn, fnj, starter, fnk

genins 100tai/500nin 100/300 100/500
jounins 150/600 100/400 (edit: 400 not 460, typo)
kage 200/800

lvl 20 nibi / low seal: 0.6%
lvl 20 gobi / high seal: 0.0008% :D
lvl 20 gobi / low seal: 0.2%, highest max dmg ofc

nothing new in this forums, right numbers, wrong conclusions ;(
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiKai View Post
some random numbers for the lulz,

fn, starter, fn, fnj, starter, fnk

genins 100tai/500nin 100/300 100/500
jounins 150/600 100/460
kage 200/800

lvl 20 nibi / low seal: 0.6%
lvl 20 gobi / high seal: 0.0008% :D
lvl 20 gobi / low seal: 0.2%, highest max dmg ofc

nothing new in this forums, right numbers, wrong conclusions ;(
And just btw, Nibi is getable sooner and easier so it probably won't be the same level as Gobi. ;)
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:30 PM   #20
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Quote:

I would say that bugs and glitches should be what's shared and discussed, to be fixed. But that doesn't quite happen as often as it should, especially with your former clan, who prized such relatively unknown secrets. If I recall, they also heavily prided themselves at gathering actual game mechanics that they didn't share, or discuss with others contrary to your claim about how public discussion is so important now.
Personally I dont think bugs and glitches shoudl be openly shared, better to PM those to Udon and let the Moderation team discuss it on the private forums, so that every kids browsing through dosent abuse it untill its fixed

As to FSR, I joined the clan yes, I enjoyed the more mature and analytical nature, versus the more socialable clans (little kids on games are annoying :P), as for sharing information, the things we deduced from testing was kept secret untill things were proved 100%, then shared with the whole clan, i believe MP didnt want us sharing information form a feeling that he put work into something, others should do it if they want it (regarding things that took ridiculous amounts of effort), little things like advice based off what we know etc was given, Myself as well as others do that even now, and Im sure those we help can attest to that... things that were found as mistakes in coding were reported to Udon (or at least thats what the clan members were told when we found out)

Quote:
Please don't take that as a personal attack, I'm merely noting your poor choice of affiliation given that now you are saying information ideally should be shared. While you seem to value public knowledge and healthy discussion, joining fsr obviously diverged from that. I personally think that if you are in the pursuit of knowledge, public discussion is and always will be the fastest way to develop it. Not keeping the data in-clan like your former clan.
Oh Im not taking it personal, healthy debate is always good I think...Im having trouble figuring out what you mean by affliation, Im assuming you meant, by me choosing to join FSR?

Ive always thought information should be shared, thats why I joined FSR, for them to share knowledge with myself, and in turn Ive shared it with other as I said above.

I agree public discussion helps gain knowledge faster (thats how I and others figured things out, we discussed in the clan, the whole two heads are better than 1 saying), as for keeping data in-clan, theres not much I can say about that, that I already havent... but as a side note, jokingly of course, Your clan is more secretive than FSR, we at least gave out our members list :P

Quote:

The development of the guides and tools available to the public are clear examples of the results of public discussion. Now just think of how much more robust the tools available would have been had your former clan decided to offer out some of their findings rather than just hording and profiting off information released freely by others.
Honestly I have no idea how much better they would be, things like the basher, and the DM/DV guides, show largely exactly how our own information is gained, Sure it would have been shown sooner, but I dont think it would be better than they currently are, possibly worse, personally I see Firehydrant catch things I would miss... but I can only say again, quite a few of us did offer information to those who asked, but we didnt post it on forums and such
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