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Old 06-18-2010, 11:02 PM   #61
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It was gonna be, but then Szilu had to interject with retarded accusations towards me when obviously, he didn't read, or understand at least anything that was being said. And I'm not the type to take crap from someone who feigns concern about game balance when he was also one of the few called out directly by Poker of using the glitch they discovered.

Okay, first... I agree with your claim on LW, the only problem is, try to understand how hard it would be to argue that case if you were in my shoes. What will happen if I cry foul on all the new LW that were introduced as a result of legendary march? Obviously, everyone is gonna point the finger at me and say I'm just being jealous because I can't hunt them currently since I'm on beginner. Can you see what a headache that would be to try and argue against? Try arguing that against the mob. But ask udon yourself, I sent him at least 2 pm's in regards to how I feel the LW introduced even for easy/medium were overpowered in comparison to what was out there, and that I hope he really pays close attention to balancing out the other LW he's gonna introduce. Obviously the ones for extreme/impossible went above and beyond that even, but what can I do? People will just cry foul no matter what. While udon heard my point, all it really led to was a slight nerfing of faerie cloak unfortunately.

Anyway, point #2. How exactly does crit and endurance not play a role? Just think about how well it synergizes with these new OP LW we are agreeing on. I don't need to do sims and math to know that crit and endurance when synergized with many of the extreme+ LW make a drastic difference in "effective levels" that it adds to the ninjas. Why level my ninja 15-20 levels, when I can just pop on one of the extreme LW and go bankai or supersaiyan? That's a month+ worth of leveling I no longer have to do. Why level from 40-60 which would take months, when it can be replaced by a single LW buffed further by synergies? If end/crit doesn't mean anything, then I'd assume that it wouldn't even add more than 2 or so effective levels. Feel free to do your calcs to see just how much of a boost endurance and crit could potentially add, and then let me know if you want.

If you read my summary arguments, I keep claiming it's the grouping of what occured, which was the introduction of crit/end that came with the seal changes, LW, and the new summons. And trust me, the new summons play nearly if not equal a factor as the LWs if we're talking about it's effect on "speed progression", but I'm not gonna try to convince you of it since it's obvious people just don't understand that point which is frankly, common sense.
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:44 AM   #62
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Quote:
Okay, first... I agree with your claim on LW, the only problem is, try to understand how hard it would be to argue that case if you were in my shoes. What will happen if I cry foul on all the new LW that were introduced as a result of legendary march? Obviously, everyone is gonna point the finger at me and say I'm just being jealous because I can't hunt them currently since I'm on beginner. Can you see what a headache that would be to try and argue against? Try arguing that against the mob. But ask udon yourself, I sent him at least 2 pm's in regards to how I feel the LW introduced even for easy/medium were overpowered in comparison to what was out there, and that I hope he really pays close attention to balancing out the other LW he's gonna introduce. Obviously the ones for extreme/impossible went above and beyond that even, but what can I do? People will just cry foul no matter what. While udon heard my point, all it really led to was a slight nerfing of faerie cloak unfortunately.
Yea that's a good point. Well, I'm calling it out now, whether it takes though is a whole other matter.


Quote:
Anyway, point #2. How exactly does crit and endurance not play a role? Just think about how well it synergizes with these new OP LW we are agreeing on.
Sorry if I didn't make it clear, but what I meant was the new crit and endurance bonus given by the seals does not have a major effect on low nin team (they don't have much tai and they don't get endurance, the +10 reroll helps but is minor compare to other factors). And since low nin still sets the bar for clearing speed, crit and endurance from seal bonus did not greatly affect the fastest speed at which you can clear impossible.


Well, I guess at the end of the day, we can only do our best to point out these things and wait.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:15 AM   #63
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Okay, understand now what you mean about the minimal boost that the stats have on low seal progression. Makes sense, all things considered, it still provides a tiny boost, with the 10% bonus reroll and small additional damage coming from whatever tai is present at times. But yeah, nothing amazing to write home about.

The thing is, I'm not narrowing in on just speed progression. It wouldn't make sense that I'm asking people to look at the big picture, yet focus only on low seal, high nin "speed" progression. The way things were prior, a lot of thought needed to be placed into planning your lineup, whether full low seal, hybrid or high seal. Making a slight miscalculation would end up in you having to level one or more ninjas possible 5-10 extra levels individually, or having to level all your ninjas 5-10 levels higher than the next guy. visi's Manda build is a great example of this, if he didn't pick the right ninjas and LW to hunt, it would likely take him a month or two extra just to make up for his poor choices, but because he made all the right decisions, he cleared easy to hard at just about the same speed as many of us low seal teams were going at, without the struggles of shitty rolls, and wasted WE, and whatnot.

To put it in terms more people can probably understand, using Aeno's Kyuubi's tool as an example. When you plug in all of your stats and whatnot, factoring in LW values, etc. you end up with whatever % chance of success. Minor changes such as, shifting slots, or moving around a LW from here to there, or focusing on getting a particular stat on one ninja higher than the rest all have different effects in the end at what the success % ends up being. Sometimes it's small, but something it's the difference between having only .01% chance to succeed and having 1-2% chance to succeed. That was how I felt the gameplay was prior to the group of additions.

Nowadays, it's just... enter any mode you want, grab nibi or gobi early depending on team type, easily level it to 20+ as needed for the mode, and clear it regardless of what team type or what decisions you made. In the past, the harder modes punished you severely for making tiny miscalculations, and now, it really doesn't matter who you pick, or what team type you have. I can close my eyes, pick any 3 genin/2 jounin/1 kage, and as long as I patch on Gobi, I know I'll complete the mode in 1-4 months tops. Because the seal changes made every ninja viable, regardless of stat distribution and regardless of whether I decide to go low or high seal on it. I like the seal changes, but the LW/end/crit/bijuu summons made the skill required to play harder modes a joke.

It's hard now to really differentiate who is a skilled player, cause like I said, I can close my eyes, make the worse selection possible, and I will still end up finishing the mode at most a month behind. In the past, you could be stuck for months on end for just making one poor decision on a mode such as extreme or impossible.

But yeah, like you said, at the end of the day, we can only try to explain our points to provide udon with different viewpoints on issues at hand, and hope that udon shares one that's similar. I won't cry about it if nothing is done, but if you tell me the game now is so much better than it was before, I'd laugh and write legendary Minaro-style wall-o-texts to refute it. =P
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:43 AM   #64
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Hahaha, I don't think I've stumbled across these legendary Minaro-style wall-o-texts yet.

I'm still of the opinion that its better for all seal types to have closer prowess on WM and just rebalance BA to give all seal types a chance (nerf Manda, nerf immunity) so everyone can play in whatever style they like best and not be severely penalized. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the overall benefits/detriments of the new addition.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:51 AM   #65
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On short on why is the time narrowing you need to factor in a bit of this as well:

more teams => more challenges throwout the game

more challenges and more teams => more ninjas distributed in a certain level range

more ninjas distributed in a certain level range => faster progress through the game (you always have a team that gives you decent or excellent ninja XP)

Hope it makes sense at least for me it does
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:05 AM   #66
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Well, me personally I can understand if anyone who goes back to "camping" finds the game less fun than before. But that might just be because I never liked playing that way, and I've played this game (and prequel) for about 5 years now in different ways. You are "stuck" with your early decisions forever and have to rely on balance updates that your team is the best for the future, unless you have the patience to level new ninjas.

I can agree that especially Endurance makes it faster, and because some of the new LWs work really well for low seal nins AND have endurance, this means the game can be completed faster. The way the game was played before was just stupid. Pick High seals and you never beat the game. Sure, it was fun the first few modes for the top players, but I think everyone got fed up with playing the same ninjas as everyone else... It wasn't really that much difference in skill before, you just played the same ninjas + chiyo/oro sd as everyone else on he rankings top list. At least you can actually play with your favorite chouji or whatever without having to sacrifice 1 month.

I still have no *real* proof that Gobi needs some kind of nerf, but if I were to predict then I'd have to say that is the case because I think players will be able to get him to lvl 20-25 quite comfortably.


Yep, the Aka LWs were cool and all but too imba. Spar sent some concerns but I can't remember anything in particular except the Faerie Cloak which was addressed specifically. I kind of get A LOT of PM:s (mostly Hello, gief ryo, my password:S, KISAME KAGE etc) so I have to delete them really often, and as I have pretty much said to everyone who discusses balance things with me on PM; please make a forum topic. I need to have it on a permanent place, and I need to see how important the issue is for everyone.


I guess we need to take a look at the earlier difficulties too. Is everyone playing with Gobi, is he the "fast" way to clear easy-hard? As you all know, it's pretty damn easy getting a lvl 10 summon so I would assume that would be less the case on earlier diffs where you can still afford SD's, Hatchi's and get them to a decent level. But still... Gobi is a no-brainer, being used by more teams than Katsuyu. Gamakichi is still the undisputed #1 tho with 6000+ users.


Sparhawk, I couldn't find if you had any suggestions on what should be done (except that the game was more balanced before. but the game wont be reverted) but if you had any specific balance changes please just copy paste them again.


Until Gobi, or other summon, is proven to be totally imba (everyone seem to be of a different opinion, I'm especially convinced by cubasuba2 or whatevers "no udon the game is perfect no change pls" "gobi is perfectly balanced" spam on page 2 before deletion :D), I think we could at least nerf the Aka LWs... It won't affect THAT many ppl, and should affect those equally. The other LWs added had a pretty low drop rate of 0,03, while the Aka LWs (along with FNJ-LWs which however are of varied quality) have 0,04.

I've mentioned this before;
* Drop rate reduced to 0,03. (This will be sad day for everyone except Impossible users)
* Nerf current Aka LWs by ~5-10 "atk value" depending on wpn. (This will be sad day for especially Impossible users)

Those I would suggest nerfing a bit are the following damage dealers;
* Revive Armor (chop 15 endurance)
* Immortal Blade (chop 5 atk, 5 endurance)
* Garuda (chop 8 endurance)
* Tortoise Mail (chop 5 endurance)
* Demon Hit (chop 5 atk)
* Neo Fang (chop 10 tai)
* Kali Blade (chop 20 reroll OR maybe 10 tai, 10 reroll)
* Terrorizer (chop 6 tai, 6 nin)

Even with these suggested changes I see no reason to change my initial goal of getting two Aka LWs on impossible.

The other Aka LWs or similar strength added are Ashura Sword (+41 nin, +15% reroll, +70 e.adv, +18% ninja exp, +10% death5) which I'm using atm (no one else, its not a real kyuubi basher so I dont know). Cursed Ribbon (a "baiter"), Psionic Blade (0,02% drop, very situational)

Even if they are nerfed by a bit, it's not like it will take years longer... and it wasn't really a big surprise that on harder difficulties stronger lws will be available. I should probably have just not listened to all the whining about how impossible it will be with 100% HP and all that when the difficulty discussion was on topic. Kind of forgot about that because of all the negative response I get whenever the game is made harder.

Anyway, opinioné?
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:25 AM   #67
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yeah udon these LW are a bit ower powered.kali blade should be choped to 10 tai and 8 reroll or maybe 10 reroll and 15 tai
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:48 AM   #68
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i thought those lw's were made to catch the campers, wouldn't make much sense to nerf them now or you have to add more LOLWUT lw's to impossible.
hm thinking about it, nerf the extreme ones and add more ragnaroks :P
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:42 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonyredeemed View Post
wow ... should it be mentioned that his summon is lvl 17 and the lvl 40 low seal/high nin team you are talking about just need a lvl 13 SD



i strongly disagree ...
Yeah, antony. My summon was level 15, and you are forgetting that SD is unlocked at otherworld, it is only natural that gobi is higher leveled. I'm telling you, make it unlock after karakura.

Edit: Sparhawk, stop bashing members of MI with this stupid nonsense. The people who you claim "abused" this glitch are not playing this game anymore. You should be concerned about your biased opinion. You are trying to slow down the game progression in general so you get a longer headstart for your own team, your not kidding anyone.
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:18 AM   #70
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Gobi is better for progression than any sannin summon, costs a ck less than one and is unlocked before karakura. doesn't this seem OP even for beginner?
it needs to be unlocked after karakura... at least that...
at high lvls, summons are hard to lvl, so gobi catching up/almost catching up with a nibi is possible, when counting lvls. when counting avg atk, it would probably surpass nibi by the time the team gets to kyuubi.
also, not sure about this, but successful baiting with gobi is kinda' easier than nibi, or maybe I'm missing something...

p.s. you peeps should decide if you nerf this or not before I go to impossible or I'll hate u forever. you always add the ninjas/stuff I want too late to be useful for me!
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:31 AM   #71
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@Udon
Change the drop rates of Aka LWs, but leave the stats as they are now.. As you've already said: on higher difficulties LWs are beeing excepted to be stonger.. if (fe. Kali Blade) is too OP for an extreme LW, then i need to say that it isnt worth compleating all the difficulties.. to get those Aka LWs you need to play about an year or so.. thats just some kind of price you would get for progressing.

although i agree that drop rate should be nerfed, since more power LW = harder to get..
(and going that route - u should add some awesome impossible LWs, that would be @ 0.01 drop rate).
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:11 PM   #72
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Udon,I have to disagree :(
Well,the acual drop rates are too high,indeed.But the impossible players would get unfair advantage because they could hunt these LWs with a higher chance to find them.You should at least wait for some time until changing the drop rates,because there are some extreme players(like me)who even used some premium to progress faster and hunt these legendary weapons.And now when they're so close to start hunting,their drop rates will get reduced...it's kind of unfair ;)

And what about Gobi,it shouldn't get nerfed,the best option would be making it unlockable after beating the Akatsuki temple.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:11 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barthek View Post
@Udon
Change the drop rates of Aka LWs, but leave the stats as they are now.. As you've already said: on higher difficulties LWs are beeing excepted to be stonger.. if (fe. Kali Blade) is too OP for an extreme LW, then i need to say that it isnt worth compleating all the difficulties.. to get those Aka LWs you need to play about an year or so.. thats just some kind of price you would get for progressing.

although i agree that drop rate should be nerfed, since more power LW = harder to get..
(and going that route - u should add some awesome impossible LWs, that would be @ 0.01 drop rate).
Agree. Players have spent their time and effort hunting those LWs, searching for a specific reward. Nerfing them seems a penalty for those players (wich I include myself).
As kai said, LWs should at least balance a bit difference between progressors and campers....if not, what's the bigdeal about progressing? Once impo players finish they are going back to begginer, and finding their FNK are useless against those hidan+hidan+nidaime+kats with wtf-tai immunity and omg-nin immunity.

I do agree also that they are "pretty easy" to find compared to other LWs, with the benefit that you also find tons of mini-lws that ryo boost ur team while Item Hunting (got 330 ryo while searching kali). Maybe just having the chances of finding them are penalty enough (0,02% seems harsh enough due to difficulty finishing those missions)

Maybe another different post with poll could be more apropriate. This one started being a discussion about Gobi and ended up being a mix of several ideas getting far from it's original purpose. Udon, if you could start it, it would make a higher echo among players.

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Old 06-19-2010, 12:40 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udon View Post
I've mentioned this before;
* Drop rate reduced to 0,03. (This will be sad day for everyone except Impossible users)
* Nerf current Aka LWs by ~5-10 "atk value" depending on wpn. (This will be sad day for especially Impossible users)
Actually the second part is advantageous to people who want to stay ahead, even if it does take them a bit longer to clear. Cause it slows down everybody else who will come after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by udon View Post
Those I would suggest nerfing a bit are the following damage dealers;
* Revive Armor (chop 15 endurance)
* Immortal Blade (chop 5 atk, 5 endurance)
* Garuda (chop 8 endurance)
* Tortoise Mail (chop 5 endurance)
* Demon Hit (chop 5 atk)
* Neo Fang (chop 10 tai)
* Kali Blade (chop 20 reroll OR maybe 10 tai, 10 reroll)
* Terrorizer (chop 6 tai, 6 nin)
That's not bad, though I don't think Demon Hit ever needed a nerf. On the other hand it does have a higher drop chance than the rest so I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by udon View Post
Until Gobi, or other summon, is proven to be totally imba (everyone seem to be of a different opinion, I'm especially convinced by cubasuba2 or whatevers "no udon the game is perfect no change pls" "gobi is perfectly balanced" spam on page 2 before deletion :D)
Hahahaha, well tell you what, when I find some time (or somebody else who's got some) I can look at Gobi on lower diff progression and see if its really as omgwtf amazing like so many people claim. I've really only been studying mostly extreme and impossible scenarios at the time of bijuu balancing. Can you blame me? That's the diff everyone was heading into at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by udon View Post
I should probably have just not listened to all the whining about how impossible it will be with 100% HP and all that when the difficulty discussion was on topic.
Agreed, that was so much bogus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Szilu View Post
more teams => more challenges throwout the game

more challenges and more teams => more ninjas distributed in a certain level range

more ninjas distributed in a certain level range => faster progress through the game (you always have a team that gives you decent or excellent ninja XP)
Yea, was gonna point that out too, but you beat me to it. It is pretty much inevitable that progression will become easier and easier as bulk of teams push up to higher and higher levels. I've also noticed team xp for a given level of ninjas/summons is on the rise, which means slight increase in team ninja bonus over time. Another factor that contribute to ever faster progression.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
p.s. you peeps should decide if you nerf this or not before I go to impossible or I'll hate u forever. you always add the ninjas/stuff I want too late to be useful for me!
When are you going to impossible? Whatever you do just don't pick gobi, I can't guarantee what kind of results will come out of a lower diff comparison.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:12 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
Gobi is better for progression than any sannin summon, costs a ck less than one and is unlocked before karakura. doesn't this seem OP even for beginner?
it needs to be unlocked after karakura... at least that...
The only sannin summon remotely useful for progression is Katsuyu (respect to those few Mandas out there), but it is slow compared to SD, what was needed was a summon that would make high seal/hybrid progression at least a bit competitive (= as in not 1 month more but just 1-2 weeks more), Gobi fits this role very good.
Though I agree that he could be unlocked later, as I already suggested: After Karakura if not beaten by team Naruto, before the last Karakura fight if beaten by team Naruto.
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:00 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghiddi View Post
Edit: Sparhawk, stop bashing members of MI with this stupid nonsense. The people who you claim "abused" this glitch are not playing this game anymore. You should be concerned about your biased opinion. You are trying to slow down the game progression in general so you get a longer headstart for your own team, your not kidding anyone.
Poor Ghiddi asshat-san, still in denial at being called out by poker.

Please don't be jealous that my team is stronger than yours at the moment, I did progress farther than your camp team so it's only natural that I'd surpass you. Don't worry, you'll probably find some new glitch to abuse to catch up. But now that Poker and Pwanto are gone... it'll probably be hard, since they were the brains and you were just the scorned fanboy in the whole operation. But looking at the bright side, you went from being the #3 asshat in fsr to being the #1 asshat. Congrats!

And yeah, I'm so concerned about maintaining my position which is why I suggested capping immunity even though I'd already be way past the cap given how far along I am. I must be using Ghiddi based logic in my arguments. Silly me.

@udon: I know reverting back was never an option, and I wouldn't want that either since I do think the seal changes in particular made the game better, just not the rest which has led to making the game way to easy. I could make suggestions on how to rebalance the LW, and balance things a little better, but as per my last comment, I don't think it'll be accepted very objectively given that I'm currently on beginner. Maybe when I step foot in extreme, I can propose the rebalance on the forums if things are still out of control by then, but right now I'd rather not deal with people like Ghiddi crying foul because they come from a long line of assclowns. If you want, I'll pm some suggestions towards a few ideas that you may or may not have come up with already if you want... just let me know.
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:27 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udon View Post

Those I would suggest nerfing a bit are the following damage dealers;
* Revive Armor (chop 15 endurance)
* Immortal Blade (chop 5 atk, 5 endurance)
* Garuda (chop 8 endurance)
* Tortoise Mail (chop 5 endurance)
* Demon Hit (chop 5 atk)
* Neo Fang (chop 10 tai)
* Kali Blade (chop 20 reroll OR maybe 10 tai, 10 reroll)
* Terrorizer (chop 6 tai, 6 nin)
Personally heres what I feel would be good changes:

* Revive Armor (chop 15 endurance)
* Immortal Blade (chop 10 endurance)
* Garuda (none, 30~ avg attack with 30 end, is on par with the others after they are reduced)
* Tortoise Mail (none really, its defensive and pretty even with Dragon Shield)
* Demon Hit (none, compared to others like Immortal blade, its not too strong)
* Neo Fang (chop 10 tai)
* Kali Blade (chop 7 tai, 7 reroll)
* Terrorizer (chop chop 10 reroll and 3 tai and 3 nin)
* Ashura ( boost to 50 nin.... strickly looking at WM, 25 avg attack with 15 reroll with the boost, not too strong really, its usefullness comes from ADV to advance in some spots faster, but in the end the adv is worthless.. and no i dont plan on getting it myself)
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:41 PM   #78
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i just beat hard. feel free to use this as an estimate. 3 rounds of stats across all ninjas and i barely beat the kyuubi



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Old 06-20-2010, 05:07 AM   #79
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Alright here are some sims from KB v1.3

Nibi: +3 nin/+3 reroll
SD: +4 nin/+5 reroll
Gobi I: +4 tai/+3 nin
Gobi II: +3 tai/+3 nin

Nibi LS team: Oro FNG, Konan FNG, Itachi FNG, Itachi, Deidara, Chiyo, Nibi
SD LS team: Oro FNG, Konan FNG, Itachi FNG, Zabuza, Deidara, Chiyo, SD
Gobi hybrid seal team: Lee FNG (HS), Tsunade FNG (HS), Itachi FNG (LS), Kabuto CM (HS), Deidara (LS), Chiyo (LS), Gobi
Gobi HS team: Lee FNG, Tsunade FNG, Itachi FNG, Kabuto CM, Hidan, Ebizou, Gobi

Aiming for base clear chance of ~2% on medium by adjusting ninja/summon levels. Ninja/summon levels are based on my observations of fastest achievable clears and a study of the summon exp requirement versus time available to train the summon. They are not arbitrary.

Arguably we should do this for easy-hard but I just don't feel like it so all the results come from medium. Somebody else can try easy and hard.

LWs used: Murasame, Luna Sword, Faerie Cloak.

I begin by having all ninjas use their respective 400/800 (except Hidan who is better off using only his 800 + a robust nunchuk). Itachi FNG always gets Murasame, Chiyo/Ebizou always get Luna. Faerie cloak goes to the jounin with highest damage, or greatest need of the stamina if roughly same damage. The rest gets FSP or robust nunchuk as applicable.

There is no stat buying. I never put in stat buying in these sims because stat buying is highly situational and play style dependent.


Nibi,
Ninja Lv: 36, 36, 36, 35, 35, 34; summon Lv: 13; clear chance 2.1%

SD,
Ninja Lv: 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 33; summon Lv: 11; clear chance 2.0%

Gobi I hybrid,
Ninja Lv: 34, 34, 34, 34, 33, 31; Summon Lv: 12; clear chance 2.1%

Gobi I HS,
Ninja Lv: 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 33; Summon Lv: 12; clear chance 1.1% (7% if sumon Lv 13)

Gobi II hybrid,
Ninja Lv: 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 33; Summon Lv: 12; clear chance 2.0%

Gobi II HS,
Ninja Lv: 36, 36, 36, 35, 35, 34; Summon Lv: 13; clear chance 1.5%


A few things I should comment on,
1) Nibi and SD were surprisingly close to each other, I guess you can blame the extra Itachi in Nibi's team and his OP 400 ability for that.

2) Decreasing Gobi's tai boost from +4 to +3 had a surprisingly low effect (at least surprising to me). Most likely HS got a lot more boost from their endurance bonus than they ever got from Gobi's +2 stat over Katsuyu.

3) I also checked Gobi II against Sanbi on extreme using my own planned team and found that they tied. But my team isn't typical so someone should check these results for extreme. I am pretty sure, however, that Gobi I and Gobi II will both fail compare to Sanbi for hybrid and HS teams from all the impossible sims I've previously performed. (some of which are still posted BTW)

4) I strongly advice against moving Gobi to RF because that will make rebalancing of Manda difficult down the road, especially if we need to remove the baiting attributes. This is part of what I was worried would get screwed up because a non-baiting Manda will likely be measured against Gobi for progression balance but several other major combat summons need to be measured against Manda. Could set off a chain of rebalancing. But if Gobi is available earlier than Manda, that alone can offset any extra damage that Manda provides.


@udon, I'll leave it up to you to decide how to proceed from here. I now honestly don't think it makes that much of a difference if Gobi is 4/3 or 3/3. But I doubt its popularity will change much. People cite its popularity as evidence that its OP, but if you look at it from the perspective of hybrid and HS players, there simply isn't another summon to choose from on lower diff. Its not like there is one summon tailored to hybrid and one tailored to HS. Which means other than LS teams, there's one go-to summon for everyone else.

It doesn't have to be this way though, if say Gobi becomes 3/3 and Manda becomes 3.5 atk, -0.5 TI, -0.5 NI. What you now have is a RF summon that gives HS player what the old Gobi gave. And hybrid players will go for Gobi instead since its tai/nin synergize with their low seal ninjas. Or people may simply go for Gobi because its available earlier and Manda because it gives more boost but is available later. Anyways, the exact details of how Manda can work in this role can be figured out later.

Speaking of Manda, its been OP for like over a year hasn't it? When's it gonna be nerfed?
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Last edited by Firehydrant; 06-20-2010 at 03:31 PM. Reason: Deleted rude comments
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Old 06-20-2010, 07:19 AM   #80
CrystalDragon
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Tch, stop being so high of yourself Fire and stop talking bullshit.

I told you which setup we used and that was Aeno's Team.
And as i may say we both got experience in using the Basher. Aeno by far more than me tho, it is his OWN BASHER you goddamn noob.

I guess he knows how to use it and calculate stuff *facepalm*

It's not like we didnt talk about this. Not like we talked about this the first time.

I hope i dont see more bullshit posts, like the one from you, Firehydrant~
So far

Edit: And yup, Aeno made those calculations in less 2 minutes. For real. OF COURSE NOT! Geez..it's common sense that someone like him tests stuff over and over.
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