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Old 06-04-2010, 10:01 PM   #21
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so, you trying to make a complete guide of all LW's... otherwise I'll be gladly to help and add some LW's...

and you should copy like dist said, from the lw guide forum...
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Old 06-04-2010, 10:14 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dist View Post
Thumbs up for this guide Teamish. This is sticked!

Also this guide could easily be edited to look like the LW guide.

Beginner LWs
Luna Sword (120+ itemfind) (max 1) Value: 49,5 Atk
+17 increased Attack
+28 increased Ninjutsu
+40 increased Stamina
+7% increased Ninjutsu Immunity
Bahamut Fang (40+ itemfind) (max 1) Value: 32,2 Atk
+29 increased Attack
+16 increased Stamina
Thanks Dist, would be awesome to make it look as nice as Lw Guide, but it would take a while for me! xD Making the guide in a single morning was a bit exhausting, and will retake it on next monday-tuesday. On the other side, i would prefer to keep at least for the fist days, each calculated attribute before the final Atk Value as it's helping players understand better the guide. Shouldn't final Value be in a brighter color, since its the important part of the subject??

#20 Thanks for bringing Crying Spear Django-Nara, i missed it! Same as some Easy LWs... I'm sorry i could'nt add a value for DLvl5, but absolutely impossible to make it fit

#21 hugoaburame, thats more or less the point. If anyone can help bringing some more LWs would be a huge help! Players would thank any adding to the guide. And yes, i agree it would look much nicer and NM stylish if it would look like the Guide
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Old 06-04-2010, 10:29 PM   #23
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IMPOSSIBLE [0.02%] Ragnarok (600+ itemfind) (max 1) Value:100-11.6-6.45+8=89.95
+100 increased Attack
-58 decreased Stamina
-86 decreased Elemental Resist
+16% increased Attack Reroll

IMPOSSIBLE [0%] Masamune (0+ itemfind) (max 1) Value: 36+13+1.05+1.65+9.75+11=72.45
+36 increased Attack
+26 increased Ninjutsu
+14 increased Wind Advantage
+11 added Wind Damage
+13% increased Ryo gain
+22% increased Attack Reroll

IMPOSSIBLE [0%] Mace of Zeus (0+ itemfind) (max 1) Value: 50-6.8+1.5+6+4.5+7.5=62.7
+50 increased Attack
-34 decreased Stamina
+30 increased Elemental Resist
+80 increased Lightning Adv.
+30 added Lightning Damage
+10% increased Ryo gain

IMPOSSIBLE [0.04%] Soul Blade (max 1) Value: 26+5.2+8.75+2.85+5.5=48.3
+26 increased Attack
+26 increased Stamina
-50 decreased Enemy Stamina
+38 increased Elemental Resist
+55 increased Elemental Adv.

So, that's all impossible weapons, hope you can use 'em. Maybe I'll be doing some tomorrow for ya, if you have requests, pm me.
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Teamish View Post
Thanks Dist, would be awesome to make it look as nice as Lw Guide, but it would take a while for me! xD Making the guide in a single morning was a bit exhausting, and will retake it on next monday-tuesday. On the other side, i would prefer to keep at least for the fist days, each calculated attribute before the final Atk Value as it's helping players understand better the guide. Shouldn't final Value be in a brighter color, since its the important part of the subject??
Sure you could modify it in lots of different ways, and if you get the hang of how to do everything like this it goes fairly fast to edit. just have to change some settings under User CP. I could send you a PM tomorrow what you have to do.

Beginner LWs
Bahamut Fang (40+ itemfind) (max 1) Value: (Value 29+3,2) 32,2 Atk
+29 increased Attack
+16 increased Stamina
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:15 PM   #25
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Gratz on the thread stick teamish , and i think if things continues this way this guide may replace the original LWs guide
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dist View Post
Sure you could modify it in lots of different ways, and if you get the hang of how to do everything like this it goes fairly fast to edit. just have to change some settings under User CP. I could send you a PM tomorrow what you have to do.

Beginner LWs
Bahamut Fang (40+ itemfind) (max 1) Value: (Value 29+3,2) 32,2 Atk
+29 increased Attack
+16 increased Stamina
That would be awesome Dist! Ill be out during the weekend, so i'll PM u on monday and you can give me some guidance on the subject.

#25 Hell no granny!! LW Guide is fantastic as it is! It's far more extense and has it's own purpose, that's why im not including locations, ryo value and %IF. This is just an orientative guide of structured Lws, making more accesible the choice for players or just curious people.
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:48 PM   #27
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I believe this guide has its values but I also believe it has two major fundamental flaws.

1) You're going off of numbers that Lunar posted quite a while ago before the effect of the new summons and attributes became fully understood (arguably those attributes are still not fully understood). I had a lot of issues with Lunar's numbers not the least of which is his artificial assignment of 0.2 to stamina as well his assumption that you can put a value to describe every single attribute without treating the synergy between attributes. The truth is, most of his values and assumptions went un-debated because he made one long post that was difficult to read much less understand, which makes you wonder just how valid his claims really are.

2) You are not making it clear enough just how big of a difference these values can be when used by different teams, even assuming only progress teams. This will ultimately lead newbies to making bad decisions based on your information because you made it seem like it can really be dumbed down to a single number. It will also encourage people to use these "attack values" as prove that certain LWs should be nerfed or boosted.

I know you mean well, but I for one believe this guide will do more harm then good.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:07 AM   #28
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Calling the value "atk" is something i feel is a bit misleading. Perhaps calling it something else or nothing at all would be better, just leave it as a "value"?

All in all you'll get an overview on "how good" the LWs are. Then if the attributes are correct or not doesn't matter that much does it? As all are calculated with the same numbers. Sure, stamina is only useful if you have above 50 or 100, 200 if you're using a misplaced ninja. Not sure how to make that work with the value?

Some attributes could be removed, such as Item Find, Ryo+, Lv5 Death and Ninja Exp as it doesn't effect the dmg you deal or the dmg you can absorb (immunity etc). It simply helps boosting the LWs Value, but not in an offensive or defensive way (which newbies won't understand).
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:40 AM   #29
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I believe this guide has its values but I also believe it has two major fundamental flaws.

1) You're going off of numbers that Lunar posted quite a while ago before the effect of the new summons and attributes became fully understood (arguably those attributes are still not fully understood). I had a lot of issues with Lunar's numbers not the least of which is his artificial assignment of 0.2 to stamina as well his assumption that you can put a value to describe every single attribute without treating the synergy between attributes. The truth is, most of his values and assumptions went un-debated because he made one long post that was difficult to read much less understand, which makes you wonder just how valid his claims really are.

2) You are not making it clear enough just how big of a difference these values can be when used by different teams, even assuming only progress teams. This will ultimately lead newbies to making bad decisions based on your information because you made it seem like it can really be dumbed down to a single number. It will also encourage people to use these "attack values" as prove that certain LWs should be nerfed or boosted.

I know you mean well, but I for one believe this guide will do more harm then good.
I really appreciate the comments Firehydrant, mainly because it's a opposite point of view. By naming Lunar in credits it was an ess muss sein that someone would come around and yell! But anyways, it helps me explain things:

1) As said first of all, the guide is NOT a dogma or maths axiom. It's just made for fun based on statiscal values of abilities (5atk for 50 ryo abilitie, 10 atk for 200s, 20 for 400s and 30 for 800s) and In-game results.
60% of those stats can't be questioned and I invite you to make in-game calculations and watch how nearly objective the numbers presented are.

As you said, these numbers arent counting on sinergy between stats, thats player's job to know, by gaming experience!!! Of course you don't have to agree with them, its your own choice to follow the guide or not (and if im right, there are quite a few that dont correspond to Lunar's calculations)

And most important af all, this is a game, and this guide is just made for fun!


2)In the Legend, theres a brief explanation of how they are working, so really, interested people would read it. And thats the way it has to be: brief and concise and easily understandable.
Unexperienced players will noob around as we all did, with or without the guide, as experienced players would take exactly what they need from the guide. There are other guides telling players how to finish the game, or how to make a über-team, etc. and there´s no big damage about it!
Nerfing and boosting isn't a thing we should be caring about, since LWs are unique and each smart player can get the best results of them (the only nerfed item i can remember is Zero-Sword....isn't it awesome that players can get results from a -500atk!!??).

I sincerely hope the guide is harmless, if not, i would be the first one asking to delete it :)
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:50 AM   #30
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somebody called me right after # 2 ?

i think ur guide is an excellent idea!
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:06 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamish View Post
I really appreciate the comments Firehydrant, mainly because it's a opposite point of view. By naming Lunar in credits it was an ess muss sein that someone would come around and yell! But anyways, it helps me explain things:

1) As said first of all, the guide is NOT a dogma or maths axiom. It's just made for fun based on statiscal values of abilities (5atk for 50 ryo abilitie, 10 atk for 200s, 20 for 400s and 30 for 800s) and In-game results.
60% of those stats can't be questioned and I invite you to make in-game calculations and watch how nearly objective the numbers presented are.

As you said, these numbers arent counting on sinergy between stats, thats player's job to know, by gaming experience!!! Of course you don't have to agree with them, its your own choice to follow the guide or not (and if im right, there are quite a few that dont correspond to Lunar's calculations)

And most important af all, this is a game, and this guide is just made for fun!


2)In the Legend, theres a brief explanation of how they are working, so really, interested people would read it. And thats the way it has to be: brief and concise and easily understandable.
Unexperienced players will noob around as we all did, with or without the guide, as experienced players would take exactly what they need from the guide. There are other guides telling players how to finish the game, or how to make a über-team, etc. and there´s no big damage about it!
Nerfing and boosting isn't a thing we should be caring about, since LWs are unique and each smart player can get the best results of them (the only nerfed item i can remember is Zero-Sword....isn't it awesome that players can get results from a -500atk!!??).

I sincerely hope the guide is harmless, if not, i would be the first one asking to delete it :)
1) I really question the assertion that 60% of those stats were correctly determined. In fact, as far as I can tell, Lunar got only 2 stats correct, atk and -e.atk. The rest were all hit and miss. I really should have objected to the rest of his table way back when the thread was first made, but I didn't have nearly as much experience back then. So maybe I'll make my own version if I can find the time.

2) I understand you put in a disclaimer and some astericks to show how some stats can vary in value but what I find disturbing is a lack of explanation for just how much those values can vary depending on the situation. I think everybody would be better served if you could give a better sense of just how the values of certain things change. Classic example of this is stamina. Its value could probably be as high as 1+ or as low as 0 all depending on the situation, making the values of certain LWs fluctuate wildly. A static number of 0.2 will never give a proper representation, making your current listed values very deceiving. Now if a newbie comes along and understand that when looking at your thread then great, but I just don't see that when I look at it now.

I should remind you all that Lunar never progressed and never played more than one team type fully (his alt was a pink camper). I don't understand how you can trust his so called analysis at face value when half his numbers came from "gut feelings", apply it to progression, and expect great things to come of it. Most of the great and exciting things on this server were discovered through experience. If you really want to make a table of values to rank LWs for progression, the least you could do is start a new round of investigation, combine the experiences from all the players that have now experienced the new seal system/stats, and look carefully at each and every stat again. As it is you're just going to mislead anyone who isn't familiar with the game's mechanics. Hell, a set of player rankings from high-diff progress players would probably tell you more about the values of LWs then this "attack value" ever could.

Lastly, I want to mention that udon does use these attack values (which I dislike) but he also uses a lot common sense (which I like a lot). And this common sense can only come from experience playing the game. You should really try to convey that message in your guide.
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Old 06-05-2010, 11:10 AM   #32
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Great guide, only thing that could be improved would be adding some explanation that they are worth slightly different depending on difficulty and use, as firehydrant mentioned.

Even though Lunar only had beginner teams I held his opinions quite high. He didn't exactly express all his opinions very smooth but his understanding of the game was good.

About the atk values... I take the difficulty and time-when-used into consideration when making them. Stamina often isn't worth much on a Extreme LW which is meant for your damage dealer, simply because it's often your FNJ which already has 100 stamina. Endurance often isn't added on low level weapons/abilities (while stamina is), and can be counted as high as 0.5 depending on amount and other stats. Having +Ninjutsu and +reroll on the same weapon means it's worth more than if it was +Tai and +reroll, which can be seen on the recent Extreme LWs I added. They are all supposed to be similar in strength, but with different uses.


If you could add something like this as a reminder in the beginning it would be great. Otherwise, I will probably check this guide myself when I replay the game just to get a fast overview of what LWs I have available :) A lot of players probably just want to know what is good and what's less good. And if they like Lee they could very well choose to hunt the LW with most taijutsu.

It's kind of hard to make LWs and abilities without some guidelines. Previously I opened up a text file just to see what attributes I had in the game and did some guessing. I kind of want to nerf Luna Sword and Tornado Edge a little bit because they ended up so imba...
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:05 PM   #33
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Udon i really agree about nerfing luna and tornado edge , since they r really imba for beginner lws and their stats are almost on bar with some of the hard and extreme lws especially luna .
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Old 06-05-2010, 07:56 PM   #34
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i think immunity is overrated according to that guide. 1.5 is a bit much for it.
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:44 PM   #35
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#34 Based on what? As it's % it becomes more and more powerful the higher the value is.
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:45 PM   #36
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Nice thread and good work i can say very good.

As hydrant said we should reevaluate the stats for the Meta game as a whole not parts of it. And first of all we need to have a baseline to go from it ...

1 attack for example a pure damage which isn't affected by imm etc .

BUuut when you consider a LW you need to think of it's scope as well you may need some parts of the LW but not all of it ...

For instance stamina over 100 is kinda unusable ... reroll after a certain amount unusable ... proof of that is that amount of global attack doesn't exist.

Building LW needs common sense as Udon said and FireHydrant said you don't want to make the "God Slayer"

Given the current meta i would want to decrease a number of attack values maybe we can find a few hours and we can discuss about this, clearly LW differ in my eyes when it comes to progress or camping... yes i may be back in the dust with progress but i started it late anyway it doesn't really matters.

MP tried to estimate something between the 2 of them but TBH you'd need 2 charts one for the Camping and one for Progress

why?

For instance as a progression i don't care at all if my stats are affected by imm ... weaken my elemental resist ... hell they don't need to necessarily have high attack values.
TE as a progress team *thumbs up*
TE as a camper team *thumbs down* i need to combine it with pure damage to actually use it

zweihander camper *OMFG i need it * (no access for me )
zweihander progression *OMFG get away waste of WE*

there are several examples as this one

Campers take the meta as a whole as a progressor i take only damage output as an account and resisting 4'th , 8'th hit

this demonstrates as well that MP tried something in between

On nerfing LW they are accessible for everyone so i don't see a point in nerfing them TE killed by imm Luna very good stamina useless if used improperly nin affected by immunity and the high katsuyu influx ... I don't see how they'd ruing the gameplay as Zero did with -500 attack

*footnote
Udon should start considering solutions for IMBA imm teams that will come back from hard and impossible in 1 year it may become somewhat weird out there (manda was on a baiting nerf sometime)
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:49 PM   #37
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i guess if you make it all the way to impossible or something, it makes a bigger difference but on beginner and easy 1% isn't worth 1.5 damage until perhaps kyuubi. even beyond that the effects of immunity is questionable. at higher difficulties, the attack based LWs provides much more help than any immunity based LW. a LW that adds damage whether it be by nin, tai, or just plain attack is by far more useful than any immunity LW unless that immunity LW is combination based. as we've seen in progression teams, the fact remains that immunity means nothing compared to potential damage. LWs supplement the performance of immunity by boosting attack but the potential damage outperforms immunity in every case on the world map. but this isn't immunity at work, its the attack boost at work. those numbers that are applied to immunity are arbitrary at best.

immunity only works as well as it does when its stacked to extreme amounts but that's generally only available and useful in camping.

i seriously hope tornado edge and luna sword aren't nerfed though. if so, i gotta hunt 2 better LWs for my hard run or add a few extra levels to be able to clear it.
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:46 AM   #38
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how to get this lw?
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:14 AM   #39
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Quote:
Minerva Robe Value: (7,875+9,75+7,4) 25
+17 increased Elemental Resist
+28 increased Ryo Gain
+40 increased Item Finding

Kukri Value: (14,5+5+5+2,8) 22,3
+29 increased Ninjutsu
+10% increased Attack Reroll
+14 increased Stamina
Did you say something about 'attack value'?
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:30 PM   #40
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hey, I was planning on making a guide for every 800 to compare them, would it be alright if I used your stats for them...??
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