NinjaManager Forums
Old 12-04-2013, 02:14 AM   #1
Bloodysky
BloodyNight
 
Bloodysky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 591
Default Fixing Bronze Camp Teams

Bronze camp teams have been indirectly nerf'd and have been made to be extremely boring to play. Maybe that is by design though I would really hope not. There are a few things that I think could really help those of us that are working on bronze teams and perhaps encourage other people to start them up again.

The first indirect nerf was the change so that red/purple fox teams would stop leveling their summons on Bronze teams. Yes, I understand why this was put into place, but the end result is that my camp team which already got VERY few challenges, received about 6 per week when I was constantly logging the team in because the only teams that have a chance to win against the team got no summon experience when they did win, so why would they ever challenge a bronze team? Fix: Change the system so that red/purple fix teams don't get summon experience from teams under X amount of team experience (lets say 1,500 just to toss out numbers) instead of limiting it by rank. If the idea was to stop easy wins, that should actually solve the problem better, because its harder to get 1500+ team experience than it is to get silver on a beginner run.

Second problem bronze teams have is the lack of teams to challenge after a certain point. World energy becomes nearly useless and it just becomes a matter of spamming Three Experiments mission for 20 exp a pop on your first position ninja. This is because there are hardly any any teams to ever Sneak Attack so I either use 10 WE to get zero ninja exp, and 1 summon exp, or 6 WE for 20 ninja exp and zero summon exp. Fix: It would be nice if sneak attack was limited to allowing you to attack any teams of your own rank (like now) as well as teams of any rank so long as they are under your own team experience. This would also help stop people from intentionally sandbagging their team's exp (or at least give advantages to people that aren't doing it).

Bronze camp teams need help...
__________________


Bloodysky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013, 08:38 PM   #2
tihoa
BW Something or Other
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,968
Default

Teams were never meant to camp by design. The system inherently punishes anyone who camps, regardless of the rank that they are at. The purpose of the nerf was to prevent people from creating new teams to feed the already strong camp teams.

The primary reason for the lack of challenges is simply the decline in player base. It is a long and tedious journey to get from Beginner to Hard mode, especially with the decline in player base. There is a massive wall between new players and players who are already in the game. The addition of Chakra Plus and Auto Accept for players was a way to try to bridge this gap, but it was not enough. As time goes on, there are more people leaving the game than joining and there has been nothing done to encourage people to start playing the game. The players who reach a high enough team experience to even challenge strong teams is extremely few in number. Unless you can increase this number, nothing will be fixed.

For reference, when I first did Forbidden with my main, I was getting about 80 challenges a day at the 10k team exp level. By the time I got there with my alt 6 months later, I was only getting 30. I had to rely on farming ladder exp to make up the difference to be able to clear the difficulty.

TL;DR:
Need more players.
__________________
Rules! Not making sense since 3/31/2013
tihoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 02:22 PM   #3
Bloodysky
BloodyNight
 
Bloodysky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 591
Default

And yet because of the way the clan system works, people are encouraged to make camp teams or else they end up really losing out when it comes to the wars.

I know (and said I knew) why the change was done, and I agree with the reasons. I simply wish it was changed to better target the cause and fix the problem without nerfing bronze camp teams in the process (which were never the problem to begin with).

I am also very much aware at the player base shrinking, but I'm not talking about two different team's experiences over a 6 month gap.. I'm talking about over night, going from MAYBE 20 challenges a day (already very low due to people not wanting to challenge an obvious camp team) to under 10. Honestly, was usually less than 5 and sometimes no challenges at all, and this was pre 10K team experience.

I don't think any current players are going to disagree that the game needs fresh blood, but the root cause of these particular issue isn't the lack of players, the result is just feeling the lack of players more acutely.

P.S. IMO its not a simple matter of getting new players into the game, its the fact that this game (by design) allows players that are on top to stay there and so long as they play even semi-regularly they will never be caught by anyone.

Its a hard sell to tell someone, "Hey, you wanna come try out this cool game? What? Can you become strong? Sure.... Compared to folks that start after you do. Can you be the best? No, and you never will be able to to. You want to have your name on the front page as a kage? Too bad, you'll spend 5 years on a team logging in every day and so long as the top teams play 8 or 9 times a month, they will remain far out of reach. So you'll be able to start a team to feed our FN runs and camp teams."

But I digress...
__________________


Bloodysky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2013, 12:13 PM   #4
tihoa
BW Something or Other
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,968
Default

Camp teams work because of the point scaling of clan wars. Bronze and Red Fox campers are encouraged due to the value of the strength of a team. There is no real way to fix it as camping is a broken system. A bronze team will always be weaker than a Red Fox team due to access to different ninjas.

Most teams receive a decline in challenges at certain marks. These magic numbers used to be 3k team exp (especially if you were still gold), 5k team exp, 8k team exp, and 10k exp. The moment you hit those magic numbers, expect your challenges each day to go down by 20 or 30. The length of time above was meant to show you the significant decline in player base over a 6 month period. The number of challenges decreased to about 1/4 of what it was 6 months ago. The policies of the staff here is part of the problem and they are not doing anything to make it better. Until their anti-newbie policies become less restrictive, it's near impossible for new players to start up without turning to a clan for support.

It is possible for new players to catch up to most camp teams. The problem is that most players do not want to dedicate two years to clearing out all the difficulties, which is essential if you want to be able to defeat the camp teams. All the tools you need to defeat them are present if you reach Forbidden. The anti immunity weapons and the Jubi are what you need. As the camping players reach absurd levels, their rate of growth declines, but with a team of Forbidden Ninjas, your growth rate is much higher than theirs. Your FNJs already trump their Kage and your FNKs can roll through their entire team. The only question is do you want to spend 3 years to get there? I spent about a year camping on Beginner and managed to get to around level 80 on all, and I was already able to beat the non-super immunity teams using a Katsuyu. If I had the Jubi then, I could probably steam roll their entire team.
__________________
Rules! Not making sense since 3/31/2013

Last edited by tihoa; 12-20-2013 at 12:17 PM.
tihoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2013, 02:51 AM   #5
Bloodysky
BloodyNight
 
Bloodysky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 591
Default

I agree with much of what you said, except that I know the difference between challenges falling off due to my own team exp rising along with the decline in players, and the instant disappearance in challenges due to an over-reaching rule placed into effect without considering the collateral damage it causes to teams that were never in any way part of the problem. I watched it happen practically over night when the changes were put into place. So if your trying to convince me that it was actually due to my team reaching some cusp of team experience or its just the lack of players, then I'm telling you point blank, you are wrong. I am fully aware those things are factors, but anyone that has played long enough to have a team strong enough to actually battle my bronze camp team is experienced enough to understand that you take every summon exp you can get, and they would never waste their BA energy on a team isn't even going to give them summon exp from a win (not to mention bronze immunity campers have just naturally lower ninja levels than red/purple fox teams at comparable team exp points, so they already get less/little ninja exp).

Just asking that we fix the changes that were done which made bronze campers damn near unplayable from a 'fun' factor (for no reason other than not actually considering the full effect those changes might cause).
__________________


Bloodysky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2013, 12:01 AM   #6
tihoa
BW Something or Other
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,968
Default

The decline in challenges is a problem you face when you play a camp team no matter what. The change was forced due to some of the top camping teams using their bronze accounts to feed their mains for summon exp. However, a majority of challenge losses is as a result of hitting certain team exp marks, this goes for all ranks. Bronze campers now suffer the same way that Purple Fox campers do as well except that a much larger proportion of players get stuck at Red Fox, which helps you more early on. However, your challenges still drop to next to nothing.

Using a system based on team exp rather than team rank might be a viable solution, but it creates a problem with players at the higher difficulties who probably cannot get out of silver until 5k or so team exp.

As a camp team, you should understand that you get a majority of your exp and wins from challenging other players anyways, not waiting for other people to challenge you.

I never found camping to be "fun." For me, fun was trying to collect all the FNs.
__________________
Rules! Not making sense since 3/31/2013
tihoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2013, 01:09 AM   #7
Bloodysky
BloodyNight
 
Bloodysky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodySky
Yes, I understand why this was put into place
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodySky
I know (and said I knew) why the change was done, and I agree with the reasons. I simply wish it was changed to better target the cause and fix the problem without nerfing bronze camp teams in the process (which were never the problem to begin with).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodySky
I know the difference between challenges falling off due to my own team exp rising along with the decline in players, and the instant disappearance in challenges due to an over-reaching rule placed into effect without considering the collateral damage it causes to teams that were never in any way part of the problem.
I literally do not know any other way to say this to you... If you didn't have a bronze camp team when the change happened then you would not understand the INSTANT disappearance of nearly every arena challenge. It is not the same as challenges going down due to the camp team increasing its own team experience and ninja levels. So please stop telling me over and over again that what happened was just a result of a camp team getting to the higher levels of camping, because for the FOURTH time, that isn't what I am talking about nor what I watched happen. You do not know, you are just making assumptions.
__________________


Bloodysky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 03:53 AM   #8
tihoa
BW Something or Other
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,968
Default

Rather than attacking someone, you should read carefully. More people spend time at the higher ranks and as a result, more players are clustered there and the two rank penalty makes Bronze the equivalent of Purple in terms of challenges, something that is just not worth it. Not because of just summon exp, but ninja exp because your team is just too strong. You unfortunately also lose the ability to trade with higher rank players due to lack of summon exp.

You're forgetting that your team needs to be "worth it" for people to challenge. If you are not getting that many challenges, it means your team is too difficult for most people to beat and people are now valuing that 1 summon exp more than whatever exp they can get from your team. As a result, Bronze is now the equivalent of Purple Fox and you will just have to live with it. You might be able to build an extremely strong and unstoppable team, but you will not get many challenges outside of people from your own rank.

There are still other campers (though the numbers declined heavily) at silver and gold that you should be getting challenges from because the rank difference is not that great. For some reason you are not, so there is clearly something else that is causing it rather than just the change. Purple teams still occasionally get decent challenges if there is something about their team that makes it "worth it," such as an easy L5D kill.

People at higher difficulties would still have a reason to challenge you as long as they can beat something in your team to score that +40 exp. They spend much more time in those difficulties, but most people never make it that far in the game. Most of the people that did already quit or got banned. Unfortunately for you, most people get better exp challenging people that they can barely beat.
__________________
Rules! Not making sense since 3/31/2013
tihoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2014, 06:23 PM   #9
Bloodysky
BloodyNight
 
Bloodysky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 591
Default

You should take your own advise and read carefully. I would appreciate you stop derailing my thread with your replies that do not have anything to do with my original post. I do not understand how you could possible not grasp the difference between what I am talking about and what you keep posting. I am said more than once I know why bronze teams get few challenges that is expected. Its the practically 0 challenges that I get ever since the rule change. I got a total of 6 challenges all of last week and 3 of them were from pre-1000 team exp bronze teams that didn't know any better, 2 of them were from a friend that tosses me a pity challenge every now and then. So really, you want to compare that to 10K purple camp team?

I am only asking for a revisit to the rule change that was made and hurt bronze camp teams when they were in no way part of the problem or were even intentionally targeted by the rule change and were simply collateral damage. IF YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THIS HURT BRONZE TEAMS THEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS THREAD AND SHOULD STOP POSTING.

Despite what you seem to believe. I am not too stupid to understand why camp teams get less challenges but for the 5th time, the decrease of challenges over time is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the fact that I (unlike you) had a high level bronze camp team when this change went into effect, and so I (unlike you) actually witnessed the resulting and immediate loss of challenges and it had NOTHING to do with my ninja's levels, my team's exp or anything else other than the fact that red teams could no longer gain any summon experience and red/purple teams are pretty much the only teams that I ever got challenges from previously.

Quote:
There are still other campers (though the numbers declined heavily) at silver and gold
Again, you are just making assumptions without any truth behind it. There are actually zero regularly active campers bronze, silver, or gold within 3000 team experience of my bronze camp team (possibly even more than 3000 but I can only really check top 50 of each village).
__________________


Bloodysky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2014, 08:01 PM   #10
TuffHunter
Senior Member
 
TuffHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Billerica, MA, USA
Posts: 153
Default

Wait... what exactly is the point of a bronze camper team besides making a team that no other bronze level player could ever beat?
__________________
Main/Alt
Spoiler:
TuffHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 12:21 AM   #11
Bloodysky
BloodyNight
 
Bloodysky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 591
Default

That is the point of a bronze camper, and so the only BA challenges these teams ever got was from red/purple teams... At least until the summon experience nerf, so now we get no challenges at all (or next to none). That's the problem. At this point I think I am the only even semi-active bronze camper, and I believe a large part of that is due to the indirect nerf to the bronze camp teams.
__________________


Bloodysky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 12:43 AM   #12
TuffHunter
Senior Member
 
TuffHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Billerica, MA, USA
Posts: 153
Default

Yeah it sucks that a team you put a lot of time into is now useless. I agree with your proposed change of summon EXP being based not around rank but around team exp.
__________________
Main/Alt
Spoiler:
TuffHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:15 PM.