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Old 07-23-2012, 01:34 PM   #101
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You're missing my point.... What I was saying was that for those who have completed all the difficulties and have access to all the LWs can make an invulnerable ninja. While Sparhawk is a ridiculously high level, he cannot have 100% taijitsu immunity on Hidan. He may be able to get 80-90%, but what I was saying is imagine a level 100+ Hidan that has 100% immunity to both damage types. The only way to harm them would be to have +Attack or -Immunity. However, Hidan is no scrub. He does have a combined 8.2 tai/nin growth, and Katsuyu gives 5 nin per level. So trying to outdamage Hidan, even with -immunity/attack just isn't possible and therefore you have a single ninja able to beat an entire level 100 team, with no possibility of losing to anything.

Edit: While nobody has done it yet, it is simply because their summon is not high level enough. However, the team I previously linked had a level 42 summon, so only 40 more grueling levels to go till he is unbeatable. While it takes a long time for this to happen, the fact that it can is hardly fair since any other team of equal level, with an equal picking of LWs, has no chance of winning.

Last edited by TuffHunter; 07-23-2012 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:01 PM   #102
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You only need about lvl 30 kat to get to 100% immunity (or was it nin-kame? hm...) Well in either way, it's extremely easy to get to 100% immunity, even without all difficulties completed
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:17 PM   #103
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Until/unless a -immunity summon is released, there is no serious way to counter teams with that amount of immunity without doing the exact same thing, and either spend a ton of money to prem, or hope the top teams retire.

Even with the current -immunity LW, you can do what? subtract at absolute most 60%, while the +immunity basically has no cap on how high it can go due to summon and while Attack summons/weapons do counter immunity somewhat, because attack summon growth isn't as great as Kat+ninja level up growth, once a ninja approaches 100% immunity and other team must rely completely on LW and Summon, just can't match the damage from a high level immunity team. Sorry, thats just the reality.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:57 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodysky View Post
Until/unless a -immunity summon is released, there is no serious way to counter teams with that amount of immunity without doing the exact same thing, and either spend a ton of money to prem, or hope the top teams retire.

Even with the current -immunity LW, you can do what? subtract at absolute most 60%, while the +immunity basically has no cap on how high it can go due to summon and while Attack summons/weapons do counter immunity somewhat, because attack summon growth isn't as great as Kat+ninja level up growth, once a ninja approaches 100% immunity and other team must rely completely on LW and Summon, just can't match the damage from a high level immunity team. Sorry, thats just the reality.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:36 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodysky View Post
Until/unless a -immunity summon is released, there is no serious way to counter teams with that amount of immunity without doing the exact same thing, and either spend a ton of money to prem, or hope the top teams retire.

Even with the current -immunity LW, you can do what? subtract at absolute most 60%, while the +immunity basically has no cap on how high it can go due to summon and while Attack summons/weapons do counter immunity somewhat, because attack summon growth isn't as great as Kat+ninja level up growth, once a ninja approaches 100% immunity and other team must rely completely on LW and Summon, just can't match the damage from a high level immunity team. Sorry, thats just the reality.
I agree completely and this really should be dealt with.The way I see it there are two possible ways to balance this.

1. Introduce -enemy imminuty summon. Probably won't require too much coding. The big problem though is that it'd take years before these summons where of high enough lvl to counter the top immunity teams unless you give them too much power in which case they'll eventually overpower immunity summons completely leading to immunity teams becoming "useless". This could create something like the wheel of elements where the immunity campers would loose to their respective -immunity team but winn over the atk campers. The atk campers would likely winn over the -immunity teams. In a perfect world all possible camping teams should be of somewhat equal strength or atleast not be chanceless against a certain type of team. Crit teams would probably be about the same as atk campers but for them not to be too overpowering at high lvls a -tai immunity summon should be somewhat weaker than the ninjutsu version. The introduction of a -nin immunity summon would also make the ninjutsu camper with SD a more viable camping option than before

2. Cap immunity at say 100% or maybe more. This is the solution I like the most where the current structure of the game is preserved but we let the -immunity lws do their work. Depending on where the cap is placed it'd require more or less lvls for atk or crit campers to compete with immunity campers. Another version of this is changing how immunity works as Udon described in the first post where immunity would still be insane but requiere equally insane lvls too pwn as it does today.

I hope my points are somewhat clear as I'm quite tired as I'm writing this and excuse any spelling errors pls :)
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:34 PM   #106
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If anything... just make the opposite summons:
32 Chakra / +5 Ninjitsu per level / -1 Enemy Ninjitsu Immunity
16 Chakra/ +3 Taijitsu per level / -1 Enemy Taijitsu Immunity

As long as the summons are the same level they will simply cancel each other out.

And then maybe cap immunity at 100% and negative immunity at -50%.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:34 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffHunter View Post
If anything... just make the opposite summons:
32 Chakra / +5 Ninjitsu per level / -1 Enemy Ninjitsu Immunity
16 Chakra/ +3 Taijitsu per level / -1 Enemy Taijitsu Immunity

As long as the summons are the same level they will simply cancel each other out.

And then maybe cap immunity at 100% and negative immunity at -50%.
Good luck getting your -1 Enemy Nin imm summon to level 93.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:59 PM   #108
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Quote:
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Good luck getting your -1 Enemy Nin imm summon to level 93.
It should take as long as getting a +1 Nin imm summon to level 93.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:47 PM   #109
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there has still not been anyone that has just simply suggested a nerf on kat and that squirtle thingy... i mean i think TI and NI is "kinda" fine as it is but the summons just gives way to much of it maybe try to lower the amout per level to 0.7 or 0.8 ?

a level 90 kat would then give 72 or 63% NI ofcourse its almost impossible to get a summon to a level as high as that and the only one that currently has it is spar :3
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Old 08-28-2012, 06:22 AM   #110
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1% immunity is anything but too high, campers who reach level 90+ on ANY summon deserve to get something great.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:15 PM   #111
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then incresse the amout of nin/tai it gives and remove some NI since right now its waay to easy to stack 100% NI / TI
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:28 AM   #112
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this is coming a little late but oh well,

Firstly idea of counter summons is ridiculous (imagine fighting each other with just shield). will just serve the same, not to mention -immunity summon will be crap against all other non-immunity builds.

Secondly the idea of 100% nin immunity cap wont stop the immunity users frm stacking more..... say you have -30 NI/TI LWs and the opponent stacks 130 NI/TI you still die :o

The new curve seems a nice idea.... many teams can keep track of the immunity of an opponent team and then decide LWs for their teams accordingly. Apart from that dare i suggest removal of immunity effect on crits? Honestly crits are supposed to be pure damage.... applying immunity on it makes it useless as an attacking factor imo (i dont really know how much OP will it make crits but surely it can effectively counter immunity)

that's my response (dun flame :P)

cheers^^
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:08 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulBreaker View Post
Secondly the idea of 100% nin immunity cap wont stop the immunity users frm stacking more..... say you have -30 NI/TI LWs and the opponent stacks 130 NI/TI you still die :o
I think the idea a couple of us are promoting here is that you cap immunity at 100 BEFORE you reduce it with -immunity. So let's say someone has 150% nin immunity and the attacker has -60% nin immunity. No cap 150-60=90% immunity. With cap 100-60= 40% immunity, so having 100 or 2000% immunity won't matter as it is capped at 100 before reducing effects are counted.

I personally think this is probably the best idea since it likely requiers the least amount of work to implent. I mean with this system you could even cap the immunity at 120 or something too not put the balance to much into the crit/atk campers favour.

The changed curve idea is a very good one but it'll be really hard to find a good one that still makes immunity a viable option.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:42 PM   #114
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I still think we need a "pierce" stat.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:44 AM   #115
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ahh yes pierce .... well its same as crit ignoring immunity effects :P
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:49 PM   #116
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Personally, I don't think immunity needs changing as much as I think the game need balance overall. All stats should have a counter stat, and no stat should be effective against 2 separate stats. Considering that immunity can be stacked over 100 while -imm is basically capped at 60 is a significant imbalance. Having tai imm be effective against tai and crits is also an imbalance when crit chance is capped at 50% and reroll doesn't change that.

Between the 2 imm summons it's hard to tell which one is really more imbalanced... katsuyu seems to be the counter to SD but if you pin to 2 against each other lvl for lvl, katsuyu wins and it costs less chakra. Nin-kame is less than half the chakra of the 4 summons it's most effective against.

Basically to balance the game, more things would have to be added and some capped since if you added a -immunity summon, it would only need 40 levels to be able to nullify 100 imm. So why not cap all imm's and -imm's at 100 and make it so that each are achievable by the same time, I don't think it gets more fair than that.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:21 PM   #117
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It's just like You said Tomieh, the only real imbalancing is that there are immunity summons but not -immu summons. Everything else can be made up with fns, high tier lws and lvls.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:17 PM   #118
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Well -imm summons would help to beat an imm camper but that's all it would do so their practicality is limited. As for adding lw's there would have to be several added over a couple difficulties and not just hard which we can assume will be added next. In hard you can get a total of 58 or 59 tai imm from lw's but only 37 -imm, in fact you have to do FM in order to get enough -imm to counter hard's imm. As for soul's comment about crit voiding imm, is that true? because there could be an imbalance there.

critical does have the most potential although stacking it would take forever, you need 300% to double it's effectiveness but if tai imm blocks crits then there is a problem and there should be a separate stat added for blocking crits and not have tai imm block both.

Back on the imm/-imm topic, you could add -imm to ls's but then hs should have more imm added to them so a ls doesn't completely void a hs's bonus. At first that idea seemed bad to me but -imm doesn't effect the world map so ls's couldn't beat it any faster. It would also speed the game up since it take around 2-3 years to complete and the extra imm would only mean 1 extra hit against kyuubi considering decay is pretty strong. It still doesn't solve the issue of the game being impossible for new players but that's its own problem....anyways some food for thought.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:48 PM   #119
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Hum... Well... Just one silly idea... What if immunity nullified each other rather than having -imm stat?

Like:

89% nin 23% tai
vs
45% nin 40% tai
=
44% nin 0% tai
vs
0% nin 17% tai


It would more or less be the same thing except that the actual fights are a bit more interesting than two ninjas rolling low numbers...


Immunity still needs a nerf on itself, but -imm has always been a pretty much useless stat...
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:55 PM   #120
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Although that does look like a sweet idea, I think everyone would become imm teams. I guess you could go for an imm summon with attack lws or vice versa but there is a very high probability that the top 50 summons would all change to Katsuyu, 19 of them already are. Now bare with me, I just had a crazy idea that may have already been suggested, but what if we got rid of immunity altogether lol please don't eat me :S
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