NinjaManager Forums
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2010, 01:35 PM   #41
tihoa
BW Something or Other
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,968
Default

i don't think crit chance should be added to any summon. if you do, it will get out of hand at some point once that magic level on the summon is reached. it might be extremely high, but with the campers that already exist, it could be a serious problem.
__________________
Rules! Not making sense since 3/31/2013
tihoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2010, 07:48 PM   #42
Firehydrant
No longer exist
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 890
Default

Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

Last edited by Firehydrant; 09-08-2011 at 03:01 AM.
Firehydrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2010, 11:46 PM   #43
Lunar2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 781
Default

Yeah, sounds about right.

(Got my PC back for the moment, video card went out)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tihoa View Post
i don't think crit chance should be added to any summon. if you do, it will get out of hand at some point once that magic level on the summon is reached. it might be extremely high, but with the campers that already exist, it could be a serious problem.
It would be more likely an issue with newer campers. I for one am not eager to level yet another summon to high levels.
__________________
This poster is approved by NM Moderation to be trolled at any time, even by non-moderators.
This poster is expected to fix the failures of beta, free of charge, despite all the trolls in the way.
Lunar2
Lunar2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 10:19 AM   #44
udon
Catpain
Admin
 
udon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,457
Default

Ok, good!
Then unless someone have any better suggestion I will aim for that for the time being... I'll go change the prepare LWs crit_chance to crit_dmg.

In the meantime... we could take a look at the some summon mock-ups:
Code:
Reibi        18 chakra > 9



Ichibi        22 chakra > 11
+4 wind dmg
+2 crit_dmg

(1 + 1.1 = 2.1)


Nibi        24 chakra > 12
+3 nin
+3 reroll

(1.5 + 1.5 = 3)


Sanbi        26 chakra > 13
+6 endurance
+2 tai

(2.2 + 1 = 3.2)


Yonbi        28 chakra > 14
+9 e.adv
+4 itemfind

( )


Gobi        32 chakra > 16
+4 nin
+4 tai

(2 + 2 = 4)


Rokubi        34 chakra > 17
+15 endurance
+5 sta

(2.25 + 1 = 3.25)


Shichibi    36 chakra > 18
+5 reroll
+3 crit_dmg

 (2.5 + 2.2 = 4.7)


Hachibi        40 chakra > 20
+5 tai
+2 crit_dmg

 (2.5 + 1.5 = 4)


SD            40 chakra
+4
+5 reroll

 (2 + 2.5 = 4.5 atk)
These are just some suggestion I made pretty quick so if something seems imbalanced, just say so :) The Hachibi is similar to "CM" a few pages ago, but the +4/+1crit_dmg was probably when crit_chance was the main attribute. Anyway, comment plz!

The numbers in parenthesis is just what the stats would be worth going by the table on first page. Not updated with crit_dmg yet (0.75atk).

Another important factor is of course... at what point will they be buyable in-game? Gold rank, Red rank etc? I don't know how to solve this yet, as I was thinking of making these available earlier if you can beat them early, kind of like the FNs. But getting the Hachibi before Akatsuki Temple just makes it sooo much better than Reroll Dragon. So... I don't know if I should just set a X rank requirement and make some of them unbuyable even if players beats them. At least they get access to the LW hunting they offer.

Some of them have kind of "set" uses, such as Shichibi for low seal nin/ tai hybrids, Gobi also, but maybe some ppl get +crit/+reroll LWs instead of +nin/+tai LWs etc, Yonbi for item hunting against elemental bosses (bijuu island will probably be that), Nibi as the SD junior.

Also, a lot of the existing summons will be boosted, mainly not as used summons such as the +x elemental advantage, +x ninjutsu or whatever, Enma, and so on. And then I really like the suggestion of adding certain unique abilities to each summon, which then modifies their current effects. So for example Gamabunta with +4 tai / +4 fire dmg might have an ability which does "-4 fire dmg / +6 endurance" which can be obtained either through item hunting or in some cases buyable.
udon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 02:05 PM   #45
Aenonar
Stealth Mode
Admin
 
Aenonar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,586
Default

the endurance looks *really* high, 200 reduces penalty by 50%, lvl 20 sanbi would get a high sealer to 180 at lvl 20. a lvl 20 rokubi would give 300 at lvl 20, reducing the penalty by 60% all by itself ;o

Getting the rokubi on a low seal high nin would boost the top damage by ~37% (lots of luck needed without reroll though), high seals would go up by ~25%

endurance + reroll could actually be fun... But endurance is very powerful, especially on a summon. Far more powerful than pure +damage in the long run

I'd say 2 endurance is like ~1,5 attack, at least in the beginning.



Crit damage is underestimated as well...
3 crit dmg would be 60% on lvl 20, on a low seal tai it would buff up the damage by about ~25%,

Can't really get a decent value on it but I'd say 1 crit dmg would be about 1,666 tai, it *sigificantly* boosts the top damage.

a 400 tai with just those 60% bonus crit dmg would basically be like a 400 nin low seal with an extra 30 nin and 80% reroll (yes, really).

If you take the hachibi 5 tai 2 crit on lvl 20 it would be ~160% reroll 60 nin... (yah, really) reroll can actually not quite keep up with it when the enemy starts hitting higher...



The rest looks allright I guess, wind damage and elemental advantage is fairly uninteresting though.. Can't see anyone picking up Yonbi, 4% IF is close to nothing : / 5 stamina on a summon won't really be necessary either... ;>
__________________



Rawr. Me smash you die.

Last edited by Aenonar; 02-20-2010 at 02:41 PM.
Aenonar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 03:22 PM   #46
Lunar2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 781
Default

Ichibi 22 chakra > 11
+4 wind dmg
+2 crit_dmg


Interesting. Certainly it is quite efficient in cost for what it does, as 2 crit_dmg is essentially +1% Tai. I don't see it being used a lot in progression, but it can be a poor man's Gamabunta for camping that eventually exceeds Gamabunta in power at a lower chakra cost. Which is counterbalanced by the fact that high nin ninjas don't gain as much from it, and you need at least one of those to soak up the reroll equips.

Nibi 24 chakra > 12
+3 nin
+3 reroll


This will either obsolete Piranha, or be obsoleted by Piranha in all likelihood - it will depend on when it is unlocked. It seems a tad redundant to me.

Sanbi 26 chakra > 13
+6 endurance
+2 tai


I would either tone the Endurance down to 4/level or bump the chakra cost up to 36. This will not see use in camping, not even in Beast setups - it is simply too easy to out-muscle with conventional summons. But in progression, Endurance does not scale downwards in effect nearly quickly enough. This will be most brutal on hybrid and low seal teams, who while missing the reroll, will gain massive benefit to their decay rates with this, so much so that it might even outperform SD on average (someone should test this).

Yonbi 28 chakra > 14
+9 e.adv
+4 itemfind


Interesting concept. Obviously useless in progression, but would see niche use as a "kage killer". It takes too much ryo to be constantly changing your team's elements around, but if someone is willing to do so from time to time, or uses this as a means to pick out better targets in BA, it could see good use. Recommended for use as a secondary summon for camping, one you use earlier on and keep around for use as needed (ladder, crucial fights, WM itemfind). I would raise the itemfind on this to 6, personally.

Gobi 32 chakra > 16
+4 nin
+4 tai


Perhaps too strong in progression. It will help high seal teams out, certainly, but where the real concern lies is in low seal teams, where this exceeds Manda's power thanks to 1 seal crit/1 seal reroll/no stamina loss, and unlocks sooner than the 40-tier summons as well, giving it more time to level. As far as camping goes, I think this actually strikes a fair comparison to Manda. Teams that have somewhat evenly distributed power will prefer this, while "spike wall" setups will continue to prefer Manda.

Therefore, my suggestion is this - back up its unlock time far enough so that it is not a major threat to break the game in progression, yet retain its viability in camping (changing it to 3.5 tai/3.5 nin would fix the progression issues but make it somewhat worthless in camping).

Rokubi 34 chakra > 17
+15 endurance
+5 sta


No, this is insane. Endurance scales much too fast for this to be used in progression fairly. Ironically, this summon is essentially worthless in camping, but the effect is simply too much during missions to allow this level of Endurance.

Shichibi 36 chakra > 18
+5 reroll
+3 crit_dmg


This is actually...underwhelming, mostly because these two stats are anti-synergistic. Bump the reroll up to 6 and the crit_dmg [EDIT: should stay put, after further consideration], at least.

Hachibi 40 chakra > 20
+5 tai
+2 crit_dmg


Too powerful in the current metagame for camping, because there is no viable tai immunity summon to put it in check. +2 crit_dmg is essentially +1% Tai, and while the number of useful Tai-heavy ninjas is not near as high as Nin-heavy, there's enough of them to make this into a real threat.

It will basically outpace SD in average attack gain per level, as well - the 5% reroll adds more than the 2 crit_attack at first, but the 5 tai > 4 nin is enough to cover that until reroll exceeds 100%, at which point this summon is clearly better. I recommend a drop to 4 tai / 2 crit_dmg and a drop in chakra cost to 36, as well as inventing some sort of summon that is viable and features tai immunity as one of its stats. If it becomes easy to reach 75% crit_chance (which I strongly recommend against), then crit_dmg will need to be lowered to 1.5 as well.

SD 40 chakra
+4 nin, I assume
+5 reroll


I've been throwing around alternatives to this in clan chat, but this seems to be the best solution.
__________________
This poster is approved by NM Moderation to be trolled at any time, even by non-moderators.
This poster is expected to fix the failures of beta, free of charge, despite all the trolls in the way.
Lunar2

Last edited by Lunar2; 02-20-2010 at 05:35 PM.
Lunar2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 05:18 PM   #47
Firehydrant
No longer exist
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 890
Default

Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

Last edited by Firehydrant; 09-08-2011 at 03:01 AM.
Firehydrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 05:34 PM   #48
Lunar2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 781
Default

I think the crit_dmg is too high for the chakra cost. From my earlier anaysis of CM vs SD, for a 50% crit_chance, CM only needed +1.74% crit_dmg per lv to match SD's +5% reroll at lv 50. You can't analyze summon using the same attack table as you would analyze abilities and LW's because abilities/LW have fixed bonus while summons have growing bonus. With these stats someone can make a FN/Naruto (Beast) / Ichibi team with a good deal more fighting power than a balanced hybrid team.

But the wind damage is easily avoided (perhaps at the cost of not being able to elem adv vs their Earth Ninjas, but by not using Water you gain the same benefit) and, by itself, +2 crit_dmg is not broken by any means. Too useless for progression, too low of a chakra tier for camping.

People are not going to make use of the IF, when IFing you just want it as high as possible. There's little advantage to using this as oppose to nin-dog for IFing. The e. adv seems too strong to me. Its true that its only useful in select cases, but if you have a balanced team with at least one of each element and a good deal of stamina (as would be the case for an FN team), you can take down just about anybody by re-arranging your roster. At lv. 50 this gives 450 e. adv, no amount of enemy resist is going to stop you.

I suggest tuning it down to +6 e. adv and replace +4 IF with +2 sta which fits with its e. adv concept a lot better.


Disagree, +6 elem adv just isn't enough to allow it to excel at what it wants to (compare to Kamatari, which is a mere 10 chakra, to see why). Either way, we know it's useless in progression. But consider - for a camper, that IF is in fact fairly useful since summon exp comes at a premium, they won't want to level a nin-dogs and this will serve as a go-between that both provides IF and provides cover as a secondary combat summon that happens to excel at ladder.

Although, I can see that +9 is perhaps too high. Perhaps +8 Elem Adv/+5 IF or +7/+6 is a good compromise.

This is too powerful without a drawback. Should be tuned down to +3/+3 or add in some kind of penalty.

+3/+3 is way too weak though, compare to Katsuyu to see why. In progression, it would be ignored in the same way Katsuyu is, while in camping, Katsuyu would render it completely obsolete. +3.5/+3.5 is a possible fix that I debated with Ghiddi a little while ago, but I prefer a fix that moves it to a late unlock so that it retains viability in camping, while not being broken with progression. At the 3.5/3.5 level, it would be ignored in camping.

Against +crit_dmg is too high. Should be more like +6 reroll/+2 crit_dmg. Higher reroll than SD since it has no +nin.

No way - you're forgetting that reroll and crit_dmg are anti-synergistic. A ninja's nin does not benefit from crit_dmg and a ninja's tai does not benefit from reroll. Crit_dmg, therefore, does not need to be lower. I happen to prefer +6/+3, myself - allows for power on both sides without being broken (SD is better on the nin side, Hachibi will be better on the tai side).
__________________
This poster is approved by NM Moderation to be trolled at any time, even by non-moderators.
This poster is expected to fix the failures of beta, free of charge, despite all the trolls in the way.
Lunar2
Lunar2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 05:48 PM   #49
Killua
Konohamaru's Disciple
 
Killua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 422
Default

Since crit damage has too much of an impact, perhaps if using it on a summon use a static number? Like, it'd increase crit damage by 10% but it doesn't go up as the summon level up?
Killua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 06:03 PM   #50
Lunar2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 781
Default

Udon would have to do some code patching to even consider that, and I have seen the effects of what happens when he quickly adds code in - I'd rather discourage anything that involves much more code.
__________________
This poster is approved by NM Moderation to be trolled at any time, even by non-moderators.
This poster is expected to fix the failures of beta, free of charge, despite all the trolls in the way.
Lunar2
Lunar2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 06:06 PM   #51
Killua
Konohamaru's Disciple
 
Killua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 422
Default

Adding a per level of crit damage is bound to imbalance however. o.o

I'm not sure what he programs with but in the level up proc just have something like if(summon.type != "Critical Damage")
Killua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 06:25 PM   #52
Lunar2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 781
Default

Yeah, I know, it wouldn't seem to be difficult...

But there's still bugs originating from the time he decided to make negative stamina act as 0 stamina.
__________________
This poster is approved by NM Moderation to be trolled at any time, even by non-moderators.
This poster is expected to fix the failures of beta, free of charge, despite all the trolls in the way.
Lunar2
Lunar2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 06:28 PM   #53
Killua
Konohamaru's Disciple
 
Killua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 422
Default

Well it's the only solution I can think of if crit damage is to be included on a summon. o.o

3% crit damage means tai will do 2x damage with a lvl 33 summon.
Killua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 06:56 PM   #54
Monkeyboyer
Deviously Clever
 
Monkeyboyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: England
Posts: 1,080
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar2 View Post
This is too powerful without a drawback. Should be tuned down to +3/+3 or add in some kind of penalty.

+3/+3 is way too weak though, compare to Katsuyu to see why. In progression, it would be ignored in the same way Katsuyu is, while in camping, Katsuyu would render it completely obsolete. +3.5/+3.5 is a possible fix that I debated with Ghiddi a little while ago, but I prefer a fix that moves it to a late unlock so that it retains viability in camping, while not being broken with progression. At the 3.5/3.5 level, it would be ignored in camping.
While this adds an average of 4 Attack, this faces the consequences of Immunities which means to be that, that is probably the drawback of using this summon.

Considering then new High Seal system will remove 10% of the added damage by this summon just by it's self.

I personally have no problem with this summon.
Monkeyboyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 07:13 PM   #55
Lunar2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 781
Default

The problem lies in progression, if it unlocks too early.
__________________
This poster is approved by NM Moderation to be trolled at any time, even by non-moderators.
This poster is expected to fix the failures of beta, free of charge, despite all the trolls in the way.
Lunar2
Lunar2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 07:19 PM   #56
Firehydrant
No longer exist
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 890
Default

Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

Last edited by Firehydrant; 09-08-2011 at 03:01 AM.
Firehydrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 07:28 PM   #57
Lunar2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 781
Default

To be honest, I don't see the point of the wind dmg, it be much better to replace that with like +2 tai or something so this become a mini-Hachibi.

It's to guard a weakness in Res and to help in ladder. Sorta like Gamabunta would, if Gamabunta was worth using.

Yea, I guess +6 is a bit low, but I still think +sta has way better synergy than +IF for Yonbi. If Yonbi is going to have a niche use any way, its second attribute should help its specialty.

The Stamina gain would have to be at least 3 in this case, but I think Lesser Kyuubi should be able to retain its own niche. If I did not have a benched Lv33 Shinigami or a nearly 100% LW collection at this point on my main, I would strongly consider investing in this summon with the IF, and would ignore it if it has the Stamina instead.

+3/+3 is weak but I didn't like how 3.5 is not a very round number. Maybe the c_cost should reduced along with setting to +3/+3 or increased to go with +4/+4. We can't underestimate the difficulty of overcoming Manda's dual weakness especially with the addition of Yonbi. +4/+4 without weakness will make it too powerful in early game and for world map. If its going to become camping-capable summon it really need some kind of drawback, perhaps one that can be overcome at medium-high level.

Manda's weakness is its strength. Pwanto gets far more challenges than me thanks to the combination of Manda and Zweihander - fatigued on a daily basis while I struggle to reach Tired. So do not think of Manda's -2 Stam/-2 Res as a huge hindrance to camping, but only to progression.

No, the reason I find it overpowered is because a balanced low seal team can take this to overcome any team that focuses on either NI or TI. A Hachibi team can be sunk by nin-kame (or a lot of TI abilities/LW) and an SD team can be defeated by Katsuyu. There's no equivalent method for sinking a team that excel in both nin and tai, even if it does not excel as much as a pure team. The trade off for being able to tap into both nin and tai equally should be that you're not nearly as powerful in either category. If Hachibi is move down to 1.5% crit_dmg and SD down to 5% reroll then a team with Shichibi already outdo both of them in terms of damage multiplier with a 6% reroll/2% crit_dmg. I don't think you should make this hybrid summon any more powerful than that or people will lose incentive to go pure.

Point taken, but it should not be significantly weaker, either. I'm not convinced that your version would see much use whatsoever.

Also, nin-kame is not viable in camping right now.
__________________
This poster is approved by NM Moderation to be trolled at any time, even by non-moderators.
This poster is expected to fix the failures of beta, free of charge, despite all the trolls in the way.
Lunar2

Last edited by Lunar2; 02-20-2010 at 07:39 PM.
Lunar2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 07:44 PM   #58
Firehydrant
No longer exist
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 890
Default

Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

Last edited by Firehydrant; 09-08-2011 at 03:02 AM.
Firehydrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 07:49 PM   #59
Firehydrant
No longer exist
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 890
Default

Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

Last edited by Firehydrant; 09-08-2011 at 03:02 AM.
Firehydrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 08:11 PM   #60
KaiKai
El Gordo
Chat Mod
 
KaiKai's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 906
Default

the 4 tai/nin summon can also be used by low seal ninjas
a 3.5/3.5-like distribution can easily achieved by using 3/4 or 4/3

Yonbi could get 1% ryo gain for free just for the lulz :)

dont reroll and crit_dmg have the synergy that reroll increases your crit chance?

the fact that -stamina is a good thing is really weird but i dont know how to "fix" it (no, i dont mean it like"steal pwanto some challenges!"). but guess that's another story.
__________________


"Think 2 ways before talking."

Last edited by KaiKai; 02-20-2010 at 08:25 PM.
KaiKai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:24 PM.