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Old 10-01-2010, 06:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonyredeemed View Post
Its more like
Yeah, that's what you'd do if you wanted the actual Immunity % value, but what I sent Udon was the formula for the value you'd multiply Nin/Tai with in the coding. The formula you presented is what he'd use on the Ninja info page.
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Old 10-01-2010, 07:03 PM   #22
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:39 AM   #23
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Anyways , i'm in for this idea =]~
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehydrant View Post
Nerf Manda.


I don't recommend reboost since what immunity needed isn't just a system to prevent stacking but an outright nerf across the board. Reboosting will cancel out the nerf for many individual items.

Classic example is Hidan's 800, it gives 33% before nerf, and if reboosted will give 33% after nerf, only not as stackable. But even if not stacked 33% alone is OP. And there are many more examples like this on various LWs.


Under this system I would put AV at 1.4 for NI/TI. Because 15 imm gives an effective 14 imm. So on a per item basis, anything with imm less than 15 will be undervalued and anything over 15 will be overvalued. And if you stack multiple LWs, well the system is suppose to discourage it. Lowering its AV any further will cancel out the purpose of the diminishing return by giving future LWs a boosted amount of NI/TI.


I also believe a cap of some sort is needed, and is more straightforward.

But a soft cap (slowly approaching the limit) as oppose to a hard cap will give ppl a reason to keep building up immunity. That's why I had proposed, a while ago, an equation that gives independent control of how harsh the diminishing is and the ultimate limit for what is achievable.
http://www.ninjamanager.net/showpost...4&postcount=40
Note the two "100" is what you replace with whatever the soft cap limit should be.

This formula is more complicated but regardless of the formula used, people will probably just go to a lookup table if they actually want to predict what their final imm is. Still, this formula is made to give designers more freedom and is not necessarily easy to understand.


Well regardless of which system is used, I doubt that metagame will become balanced so easily. Too many things left unchecked for too long.
Again, you can't balance everything on camping alone. Also, the new Immunity will already suffer from a constant soft cap, which simply gets more severe the more of it you get.
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Old 10-07-2010, 05:56 PM   #25
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How bout leaving immunity as it is, but make Critical hits not be affected by immunity. And devise a way for nin based crits also. I'm not sure if this is enough to offset the immunity crisis, but at least its logical that a crit hit could damage even someone with immunity. Crit chance is capped at 50%, so its still not all bad for immunity campers as there is still luck involved. So maybe Manda (atk) plus high crit dmg + crit chance and Naruto the beast, could counter those Hidans when luck is on your side.

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Old 10-08-2010, 01:37 AM   #26
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:33 AM   #27
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so udon, when will this change happen? :)
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Old 10-08-2010, 12:43 PM   #28
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Use Minaro or firehydrants version?

Difference is, you can modify the diminishing values a bit more in fires? It doesnt look harder to implement afaik.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udon View Post
Use Minaro or firehydrants version?

Difference is, you can modify the diminishing values a bit more in fires? It doesnt look harder to implement afaik.
I'd vote for Fire's with C=0.005-0.006

It's basically similar in values to minaro's but bit less harsh for starting levels of immunity.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minaro View Post
Again, you can't balance everything on camping alone. Also, the new Immunity will already suffer from a constant soft cap, which simply gets more severe the more of it you get.
When the SD got nerfed it was balanced in progression, it wasn't overpowered in camping and it is viable in both. So it has happened before..
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:56 PM   #31
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minaro's and fire's c=0.005 are almost the same, minaro's looks more simple and understandable :)
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Old 11-13-2010, 10:39 PM   #32
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i think that the cap is to harsh /= tho i think immuniti needs a nerf...
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:30 PM   #33
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Once a rework to immunity gets implemented which I'm in agreement needs to happen; Manda teams will once again be the the most OP, due to it's built in baiting and non-reduceable dmg boost (the difference in challenges/xp received is ridiculously hard to keep up with even though kat teams are the current camper oriented fad); and assuming that gets reworked as well down the road, the cycle will basically continue on and on, until in the end... team strength will be focused mainly on who has the highest exploitable weapons more so than anything else, since the different pro/cons of team designs will have become marginalized that much. This brings me back to a point I've brought up numerous times in the past; new LW that are created need to be made more conservatively and relative to what's been out there rather than being ridiculously better than the previous generation of items.

In the end, once all the future reworks take place from all the complaints lodged from the usual mix of people; the game will revolve around those who have simply gathered the largest amount of broken LW over the next person, to which, those who can premium heavily will clearly have an advantage. Welcome to the new meta-game whether you agree with me now, later, or not at all.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:11 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
Once a rework to immunity gets implemented which I'm in agreement needs to happen; Manda teams will once again be the the most OP, due to it's built in baiting and non-reduceable dmg boost (the difference in challenges/xp received is ridiculously hard to keep up with even though kat teams are the current camper oriented fad); and assuming that gets reworked as well down the road, the cycle will basically continue on and on, until in the end...
Assuming there will be changes anytime soon (things are really going slow in NM lately), Manda would take a primary spot for the reasons exposed before and because all other "camping summons" (assuming there are any other) are truly powerless against those two.... Why don't we use manga/anime as example??



Not well thought (and very off-topic suggestion), playing rock/paper/scissors could well balance a bit more things between these summons (balancing Lesser, Gobi and Nibi is just another subject):
Manda: Atk 2.5 / tai imm 1
Gama: Tai 5 / nin imm 1
Katsuyu: Nin 3 / enemy atk down 2

This is just a fast idea that came up...any better one?? Can this be optimized or better balanced??

Quote:
team strength will be focused mainly on who has the highest exploitable weapons more so than anything else, since the different pro/cons of team designs will have become marginalized that much.
Isn't it whats happening just now?? Team designs CANT be more maginalized than it is now (if your searching powerplay instead of being original)

About the new LWs, it's kind of a complicated subject: first of all Begginer has quite a long range of Lws, from pretty simple ones to some who can compete with Impossible ones... second, the leaps of quality have been big (specially in hard and extreme), but you have to give players some kind of reward for progressing! FNs are not a huge reward (except FNKs) and you don't get anything else for playing several months, do the same missions all over again, throw away your team, and re-do it again... Last, LWs are the only thing that adds some spice for most players...they better be worth it!

Quote:
the game will revolve around those who have simply gathered the largest amount of broken LW over the next person, to which, those who can premium heavily will clearly have an advantage.
Absolutely true, but at least those players would have put the effort/money on those, not just copying existing teams (take a look at top red fox). And talking about advantage, is there any game where you can pay that you don't have serious advantages over other players??
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamish
Not well thought (and very off-topic suggestion), playing rock/paper/scissors could well balance a bit more things between these summons (balancing Lesser, Gobi and Nibi is just another subject):
Manda: Atk 2.5 / tai imm 1
Gama: Tai 5 / nin imm 1
Katsuyu: Nin 3 / enemy atk down 2

This is just a fast idea that came up...any better one?? Can this be optimized or better balanced??
Hmm.. 5 Tai doesn't equal to 2.5 pure atk (Since attack can't be reduced). Either the Tai of Gama should be increased or Atk of Manda should be nerfed . I'm all hands for nerfing Manda's attack in this situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparhawk
In the end, once all the future reworks take place from all the complaints lodged from the usual mix of people; the game will revolve around those who have simply gathered the largest amount of broken LW over the next person, to which, those who can premium heavily will clearly have an advantage. Welcome to the new meta-game whether you agree with me now, later, or not at all.
Well either way ALL serious campers will have the best LW's for them sooner or later, and there aren't THAT much broken LW's yet for it to take forever to collect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparhawk
Manda teams will once again be the the most OP, due to it's built in baiting and non-reduceable dmg boost (the difference in challenges/xp received is ridiculously hard to keep up with even though kat teams are the current camper oriented fad); and assuming that gets reworked as well down the road, the cycle will basically continue on and on, until in the end...
Either way 1 summon will ALWAYS be superior to others , the cycle just can't end. Thou the gap of strength could be smaller if it's balanced wisely i guess.
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:29 PM   #36
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I love the idea of rock paper sissor, but yeah, the stats need to be discussed.
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:56 PM   #37
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:42 PM   #38
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I just feel sad after reading the post....
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Old 11-17-2010, 11:28 PM   #39
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!
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Old 11-18-2010, 01:51 PM   #40
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dont see a problem here, we have a lot of diversity in camping.

some people use yondaime, some jiraiya or ero-sennin while other even use yahiko.

looks fine to me
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