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Old 04-04-2011, 07:34 PM   #61
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I think while the graphs and formulas made sense in past, which I would have been open to agreeing with prior; I'm a little wary of how it's being calculated now because of the introduction of so many new neg imm items. The graph is no longer accurate because you can't really measure the power of immunity vs +atk from manda's, gama's, etc anymore as evenly as you could have prior to the introduction of these new -imm type LW meant to try and level the field a little more.

While before, when there were no such things as -imm weapons; doing a comparison of imm vs atk vs reroll vs whatever sort of made sense. Now doing a straight comparison without factoring how those LW impact the balance seems pretty careless to me. Should a change be made like that, I would assume that given equal level teams, the +atk summons loaded up with +imm/-nme imm LW will be drastically better than imm teams of equal level. And any arguments that imm teams can just load up on atk weapons in retrospect does not make sense when you factor it over the long run for obvious reasons. It's like taking a graph prior of shini vs manda vs sd, and suddenly introducing +lvl5 death immunity weapons, and rebalancing summons stricting on their growths, and not how the overall game mechanics have changed. Pretty reckless if everything that has happened leading up to the change hasn't been factored in in my opinion.

Also, manda's are still quite comparable to many of the 40 ck summon because of not only the lower cost, and for other less obvious reasons such as the additional atk and the inherent flaws of sta & endurance when compared straight up to a Manda team in it's current form.
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:09 AM   #62
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:50 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Cavalo View Post
I agree with Aneonar. The fast the better. I also was thinking about nerf manda. IMO good solution would be make him +3.5/-2 or around with no minus to stamina. This way manda will be better for progression and not so useful in camping.
.... so you try to tell me manda sucks in progressions ? ... do you realise.. how nice he would be in impo / forbidden mode ?..... since you probably wont have any kind of stamina problems.. with the huge high lvls.. and the lws.....

ofc.. it suckass on beg-extreme... but after it does quite good
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Old 04-05-2011, 01:13 PM   #64
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Not sucks but Gobi is much better
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:02 PM   #65
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Don't worry Spar, the immunity nerf is not going to happen. And if udon wants to prove me wrong, he need only do one thing...
yeah, cause proving you wrong is high up there on his list of concerns when it comes to game balance. Don't think udon will fall for a silly provocation like that. If udon wants to prove me wrong, he need only do one thing. (see how easy and pointless a comment like this is?)

Anyway, whether it comes or not doesn't matter as much as having the calculation and application of it being done in a proper way using realistic scenarios / comparisons based off of the feedback he gets and viewed in both the short (end game teams fully equipped with realistic summons, LW, etc needed to complete each mode compared to one another) and long term (camping with ideal LW/team setups), and his own knowledge of the game mechanics. I think it's pretty important to weigh in team strength, with the importance of LW for obvious reasons. Do you make the game more about team design, or LW obtained?

No more of the, well go with my idea because I can play with numbers to make anything look balanced approach by leaving out obvious factors that are relevant but don't suit the individual's point of view.

I say let udon come up with his own solution whenever he feels the time is right. All I know is that when he first created the game, it felt a lot more balanced than it does now with all these nonsense changes that have been proposed going all the way back to the, well low seal is so awesome and HS just sucks arguments. Gotta also love the great balance of all the new summons/lw that keep coming after the introduction of WM breaking summons like Gobi/Nibi. Cause the problem we were all discussing last time had nothing to do with broken summons and LWs. Or maybe some people just conveniently forgot this when being such a great help to udon. Cause as long as the Attack Values and numbers "sound" fair, all is well that ends well right?
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:22 PM   #66
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Not sucks but Gobi is much better
manda is still better if you can pay the stamina cost.... try bash a team.. that can beat kyuubi.. with 35 tai 30 nin.. / 40 attack and see the difference




and to sparhawk's post .. yup i agree... that it was so nice before all those.. bijuu cave summons... when Spirit Dragon was the beastly summon :o and Fng were like a godlike ninja :D
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:56 PM   #67
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Depend. For LStai Gobi still would be better same for some LSnin( I know it weird but there are that kind of team). Of coure Manda rocks for HS team. But the point is that only imm nerf would disturb balance of Manda, Katsuyu and SD
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:51 AM   #68
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:15 PM   #69
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ummmhhhhh...i personally don't see anything wrong with the immunities....so what's the point here? Change the game to the old days would be pretty crappy since game without update is crap. But i do want the game to be more balance. If you dont like ninjamanager the way it is, then dont play. This is one of the game where you got the most say in, you dont get any say in Halo or any other game, so you should be happy with the way things are.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:55 AM   #70
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the main reason for this is to remove the "unbeatable teams",
and give the new campers more freedom to chose other summons.
in theory all teams are beatable, but with inmunities theres no real options is either kats or attck? i dont see anythingwrong with manda so far it give a huge disadvantage for example when one is offline is not a reliable team in CWs. just my two cents.. also is a pain in the ass not be able to misslot.

if manda gets nerfd then it should be 3.5 -1.5 -1.5 , compared to gamaken 3 and endur plus not side effects?

at 0.5 gain at lv 25 summons is a 13 attck + this is just crap for the -2 stamina and -2 resist. and i dont get why manda is the problem yet. maybe another option would be a - inmunity summon :(

or maybe add a 50% penalty of imunity during clan wars?
perhaps CWs is the main reason for this debate?

i personally don't give a dam about who beats me im a camper and i want to level my team thats all i care.
i understand how progression teams must feel.
i think spar proves once again what campers are capable of ,like during kodai's time.
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:34 PM   #71
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@spar

long posts indeed.. anyway - you are talking that much about the balance, manda strength & its pros, LWs with immu decrease, while still underestimating the role that kats plays.. i understand why you are doing it - you made perfect setup, at perfect stage of the game and it provides you beeing uncatchable for anyone atm. you just still wanna to be no. 1! thats why you are talking so nonsenses here.. but this is silly (not the semi-joke which FH presented here).

the truth is that changes in immu will also reduce power of -immu LWs (they wont scary you as much as you trying to convince us). plus you are saying the game seems to be unballanced now - i totally agree.. hard team that cant be overrun by impo/FM teams at any circumstanses (except sick prem)? that sounds imba for me..

there were beginner teams on the lead - they lost due to easy teams with 3 fng's. but that easy teams lost due to hard teams like your. then hard teams lose due to .... wait - they didnt, they still rule and with no immu changes they will rule forever..

so plz dont say so much pointless statments - you have to be aware that stopping progressing and starting to camp is just short-term solution and you will have to be beaten by others someday..
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:10 PM   #72
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@Firehydrant:

I'm not saying revert back to when the game started. I'm merely pointing out that udon has shown a lot more sense when it came to game balance before people flooded him with their own personal "astute" opinions of how to "balance" the game. This was back when we had people who truly were objective about game balance were the ones supporting udon, such as Minaro for example. Anybody who played from the beginning until now with a decent grasp of game mechanics would be able to draw the same conclusion in my opinion.

@Barthek:

Really? I've said many times in the past that all early campers will be surpassed by progressors at some point in time. Camping is futile, as shown by your previous clan leaders.

I don't care about being #1 forever, but perhaps you and a few others seem to want to be #1 so bad, you'll throw common sense out the window. I know MI is disappointed that they can't be #1 "right now" like they were back in beta when all the boasting and gloating about being the #1 clan (technically) sounded legit. I understand that you are all disappointed that even with what you call, all that "sick premium", and cookie cutter camp teams that were built from the ground up to "dominate" CW post-beta pretty much backfired due to the timing, and arrogance on your own clan's part; but such is life. At least we can still root for Ghiddi taking me down. I think he's close to accomplishing that the last time I checked.

Obviously, if my team has lvl 100s to your 50s, you aren't going to catch up right away, and that's simply the nature of pros/cons vs camping/progression. So you want access to all the new stuff like FNKs, top tier LWs, as well as an easy road to take down a camper who's been camping for nearly half a year or more who is as active if not more than you are? You want LWs gathered in later modes to account for 50+ levels of difference, as well as 25+ summon levels when it already gives an effective boost of easily over 20+ levels or more in both ninja level and summon level, given how hard it is to level already when you're frontrunning and have no realistic targets? Give me a break.

Don't mistake game balance for not wanting to lose #1 spot; that's something only arrogant pricks like yourselves care about. So look in the mirror when you talk about who really cares the most about being #1. Your pride is obviously blinding you in terms of your reasoning. After all, that is why you guys just refuse to initiate if it would draw our clan, is it not? Get a clue, clans are more about the people in them as a pose to your stupid record which is all you guys seem to really care about. This ain't beta anymore, stop living in the past.

As far as changes go, like I said, leave it up to udon to decide. If he wants to make a drastic change without weighing the consequences to satisfy whiners like you, then that's fine; but at least he should have all the facts before making a decision like that.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:40 PM   #73
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@spar
hahah.. im a whiner? nice.. tbh i wrote here only because i found you whining here..

next time try not to be so offensive, otherwise there is no point to disscuss with you. you jumped on me & MI from the start, while im not recall beeing rude to you..

anyway.. i just pointed that you are presenting reckles statements here about the immu changes and that is pretty much all your activity on forum (excluding post in MM thread and some random others). only blinded (or extremely stupid) couldnt see that you are frightened of those changes and trying to do as much as you cant to avoid it (or at least lower your loses). im not blind nor stupid..

whatmore im not aiming to be #1 since im not using premium (almost at all), im not that much active as you (fe.) or not that much concerned. besides i know i have no real chances for that..

about givind you a break and all those 'obvious' reasons you mentioned - where the hell i wrote that some1 with 50+ lvls and 25+ summon should beat your team? required lvls should be much higher, but its not the point - the point is, that atm there is no fckin way to beat your team setup, except of overrunning you with lvls that is not a solution (while you are so ahead). the thing that should make a difference is LWs (which you call as so much OP). while impo LWs cant make that difference (FM could, but after completing FM teams will be even farther from you). how can you call sth overpowered while you need to waste a year (or oven more) to obtain it?

besides all calculations you mentioned impling equal lvls, while its obvious that impo/FM should take you down with only 80% of your lvls (max, maybe even less).
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Old 04-08-2011, 04:00 PM   #74
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Barthek... Apparently you don't realize that Spar is one of the ones that is trying to get immunity nerfed. And as you know, he has a immunity team himself.
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Old 04-08-2011, 04:06 PM   #75
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@barthek:

Yes, you are whining. Wonder why I stopped posting on the forums? It's because of all the ridiculous changes that keep getting made because of people who whine like you're doing now. "Oh no, you camped at a good time, and now I nor any of my clannies can hope to beat you without getting udon to make a drastic change." Must be a game balance issue.

You think I'm afraid of a nerf to immunity? Like I've said, I'm fine with it as long as it's measured properly in comparison to other team types in both the short and long term view of things. And seriously, who would the nerf hurt more? Try looking at the 4 hardcore, "sick premium" copycat build users in MI that we're suppose to dominate after beating impossible that you guys bet the whole bank on thinking that following my design with a FNK + broken LW would suddenly make you guys the best thing ever. Do you realize that even after a nerf, they are still going to play catch up to me as long as I'm active? Are you also annoyed that all the blatent cannon fodder alts tactics you guys were using to power level your camp summons is against the rules?

The -imm weapons was the suggestion of users on the forums to udon to implement as a way to fix immunity, when a diminishing return idea presented by minaro/aeno would likely have been a more effective fix than that for the short term. Since udon chose to create the -imm weapons, now that needs to be taken into account on it's effect if you also tack on some form of immune change since I would have to believe that part of the reason why some of these LW now have such a large amount of +/- immune on them is because it wasn't planned to add on another nerf to immunity. If udon implements a further nerf to immunity, he needs to factor these LW into play as well since obviously, he isn't removing them, and the end result needs to be looked at in comparison to other end game camp types if we're really talking about what's fair or not. That's just common sense.

Try looking back in history a bit to see how your prior clan leaders who camped early seemed to think they would be unbeatable, and how everyone kept whining that campers had too much of an adv, and also how Poker and Pwanto of old used that as excuses for their choices to camp, and actually believed that they would not be overtaken. What happened? Both got overtaken which is what I said to them from the get go. Just because you don't want to put in the "effort" to try and overtake my team the regular way, stop whining to udon to try and change things more than is necessary just so that you feel that you've accomplished something.

Again, I'm not saying don't nerf immunity, I'm saying let udon figure it out himself. You making blanket statements that I'm afraid of losing #1 spot is pointless and irrelevant. Have a nice day.
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:29 PM   #76
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Barthek - Wants a hardcore nerf.
Firehydrant - Wants a hardcore nerf.
Sparhawk - Wants a nerf, but leaves for udon to decide what kind of nerf (And wants that udon would include -imm lw's when he's thinking about nerfing imm) .

Sparhawk -> Hmm, I think you're forgetting that udon "tweaks" the suggestions the way he wants it before implementing them. It's not like someone suggests something and he just implements it without thinking over.

Other then that for the past 2 pages you've just been flaming each other, going in circles and flaming again. In my opinion this thread should be locked already, for the last page no one's been trying to balance out anything, just pointless flame.
I have a feeling I'll get hated now
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:12 AM   #77
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I also believe there got to be a solution to this lol.
And I'm more inclined to spars point of view.

But there shouldn't be people fighting like this for a dumb clan rank. Or pride

I'm kind of disappointed in both of you..

How about making the immunity based in

Say 0.45 to 0.85 as in crit and LS reroll based formula?

This way -imm would be useless I. Sometimes?
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:42 AM   #78
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@spar
in short (im tired of reading all your long posts):
1) MI cheats, has its own hax0rs, uses tons of prem, cant think on his own & has to copy your great team setup - right.. we all already known that
2) -immu LWs cant be solution since there is still a way to have 100% immu (which generally is the most unwanted effect of immu) - they just makes that a little bit harder
3) of course the nerf will affect anyone.. there isnt some special crusade on you.. obviously austian existing hurts you - whonder why :)
4) end, this disscussion is pointless since we are barely touching the topic
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:53 PM   #79
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spar is correct at a point, if immunity gets nerfed badly down, + that you can use enemy immunity down for get it below zero would destroy everything aswell so we all know that udon won't be avaible of nerfing the immunity too much,

and i don't either believe that udon would remove all enemy immunity down lws neither when so many made custom lw's so in the end, i guess people can stop whining over immunity nerf since i dont think it will happend, even if it does happend then it wont be a super nerf but just a re-ballanced version where immunity still would play a big role in the longer terms..

and barthek a good hint, i dont know you but yes... never argue if you can't read what the person types.. in other words if your too lazy to read it, then atleast stop arguing since you wouldnt get his point so there wouldnt be anything to point out in other way an endless spam spam whine thread....

no i am not taking sides of anyone pretty neutral, so i am not after you barthek and neither a sparhawk nr 1# there for i must be a fan... not i am pretty neutral here.

P.S i will be the one taking spar down *blush* with a kyuubi team that has hanabi! *blush*



[EDIT]
lol sorry guess i was tired didn't check date >.> stupid meh.. guess i revived thread.. anyway still wanted to say those ;o
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:02 PM   #80
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I haven't really had the time to read everything on the forums, but Minaro messaged me about the immunity suggestions and maybe it's finally time to do something about it.

If the formula (0.99^X = Y) Minaro sent me is correct, it should result in a curve like below where its simply not really worth getting more of it.

regular immunity -- new formula
10% = ~9.6%
25% = ~22.2%
33% = ~28.2%
40% = ~33.1%
70% = ~50.5%
100% = ~63.4%
200% = ~86.6%

Probably everyone agrees that we need som kind of "cap" or in this case where it simply loses its value the more you get.

Is above formula too harsh?

Please keep in mind that some items probably willhave to be buffed a bit if this is implemented. For example newly added LWs which had their immunity based on the rather harsh 1%=1.5 atk (custom lws too i guess).

Above formula is easy to implement, but a bit harder to present so that users understand in an easy way. Will probably have to add show both values in the ninja data screen.

Below is discussion about curve affecting upper tiers

IT took sparhawk 2 years to reach where he is now. 2 years to reach level 71 katsyuu.

Has a ninja with 83% Tai immunity 96% ninjutsu, aka oppenent ninjutsu is at 4% and 17% for taijutsu and can do 400 Damage


Similar FNK itachi and SD
nin 1600, tai 200, RR 370

Damage Range 168-1632 Total dices rolls: 4.7

After immunity
Nin: 64 Tai 34 RR 370

18-80 RR370.

Even with 70% atk degradation attack would still be 120 more than enough to take out a similar level and strength kage


This proves LS has no use as camp as many already know therefore campers would be HS users.

Therefore having a immunity curve would add variety at upper tiers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't think lower tiers are affected by this much
Either they are progressing and using 20ck summons or gobi. and the 9.6% and 10% does not make a huge difference.

As sixth legion said somewhere on this forum: hybrid and HS are the fastest progressers and if you want diversity in this area, it probably not due to immunity due to 10% immunity not having major effect. It probably due to endur. and reroll or something else this can be discussed elsewhere.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Final Conclusion:

Immunity is most benefits Campers. How can people overcome immunity users? using Gamaken which at a comparable level is the only way that i can think of competing with high immunity users.

LS has no place in camping. LS in progression require tweaks before we see people picking team types based on preference over speed. tweaks about this areas should be discussed else and not in this forum


Therefore, the curve should bring balance to Gamaken users who have enemy immunity down item and katsyuu users with immunity items on a equal fighting grounds. The curve suggested is too drastic I think however, math has yet to be done then adjustments can be tested on event server see if adjustments works with math.
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