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Old 04-15-2013, 09:36 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Reroll doesn't make LS nin roll over 97.5%, so no matter how much reroll you have you will never beat crit with 100% crit damage. The only thing reroll would help is for the non-crits where you still only have ~50% chance to win. 100% reroll would boost it to about 66.5% chance, but that's still only 66.5% of 50%, as in 33.25% overall win rate.
That's assuming the Tai of LS Tai is = Nin of LS Nin

Also what about 300% Reroll teams? There were at least a few that played
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bacchikoi View Post
That's assuming the Tai of LS Tai is = Nin of LS Nin

Also what about 300% Reroll teams? There were at least a few that played
Cause it would make so much sense to compare two ninjas of unequal strength for a strength comparison...

Nin can never ever get above 50% win chance against 100 crit damage... To get to 50% win rate with reroll you'd need something like 10000 reroll.

100% reroll boosts about 33%, another 100 reroll boosts by 33%*33% etc...

So 300% reroll boosts average by about 47.48%, or 73.75% win chance on non-crits, which is still only 36.875% overall win rate.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Cause it would make so much sense to compare two ninjas of unequal strength for a strength comparison...

Nin can never ever get above 50% win chance against 100 crit damage... To get to 50% win rate with reroll you'd need something like 10000 reroll.

100% reroll boosts about 33%, another 100 reroll boosts by 33%*33% etc...

So 300% reroll boosts average by about 47.48%, or 73.75% win chance on non-crits, which is still only 36.875% overall win rate.
How about boosting reroll then? Say for example that a bonus formula is added to reroll so that 50% win rate vs crit chance is reachable? For example: for each completed 100 reroll one get +1x reroll. 1x0=0% 2x100%=200%, 3x200%=600%, 4x300%=1200% etc.

The required reroll to reach the bonus should only effect FM progression and Ls nin campers would start getting a good chance of beating equally leveled crit campers. Also considering there are more big tai immunity lws than nin immunity ones I do think such a change could put the two camper types at aproximately 50/50 win rate in high tier camping without nerfing crit.

Edit: It might also effect progression before FM but Hs has endurance and has been supperior to ls nin in progression for a long time. Maybe the field could be evened by this?
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Old 04-15-2013, 06:39 PM   #44
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Well, reroll has gotten several nerfs because it can gain so much power, so buffing it is out of the question really. Nerfing crit somehow to match reroll more is the way to go
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:51 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Well, reroll has gotten several nerfs because it can gain so much power, so buffing it is out of the question really. Nerfing crit somehow to match reroll more is the way to go
Hasn't recent years really showed that it has been nerfed too much especially for camping but also for progression?

Also it still seems backwards too me to nerf crit when there are no crit campers in the top tier camping scene today and the only reason we do not see immunity on all kage positions is that the only immunity campers that bothered to lvl properly for a long enough time were Sparhawk and Xhagashi(sry for spelling). The atk campers will never be able to get even with immunity campers although they are meant to do so which I think is a bigger problem. It might change somewhat with Juubi but that is still left to be seen really.

Anyhow how is the summon boost discussion going? If most of the community is in agreement about the changes they should be passed on to Udon so he can have a look at them right? The only issue is the crit summons which might have to wait until the crit nerf discussion is done in the other thread I guess.
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:38 PM   #46
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Oh I forgot to mention that Udon wants Aenonar to give the final approval on the buffs before he updates them. I would assume that some minor testing on the progression summons would be welcomed.
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Old 04-16-2013, 02:11 AM   #47
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There are so many additional factors that affect the win chances of 2 ninjas. # of LW with +Taijutsu +CritDmg vs +Ninjutsu +Reroll. The AMOUNTS of each stat on the same LW, the more frequently viable ninjas who specialize in each, their individual growth patterns and base stats.

The availability and quantity of Taijutsu immunity and Ninjutsu immunity. Hidan Jounin + Hidan Kage vs Tai Crit team or Danzou FNJ + Danzou Kage vs LS Ninjutsu.

3 LW/Ability slots with the base stats and growth of a ninja are huge factors as well as running into the "natural counter".

It's kind of like saying Nin-Kame needs a buff because my Taijutsu Immunity team keeps losing to Spirit Dragon teams, even when we have the same equivalent stats.

Nerf Lesser Kyuubi because my misslotted Manda team keeps losing even with the same stats.

You can stack all the crit damage in the world and you will still lose to Nin Kame + double Hidan. (Or possibly even 1 Hidan if you have no ninjutsu users on your team)
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:44 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Reroll doesn't make LS nin roll over 97.5%, so no matter how much reroll you have you will never beat crit with 100% crit damage. The only thing reroll would help is for the non-crits where you still only have ~50% chance to win. 100% reroll would boost it to about 66.5% chance, but that's still only 66.5% of 50%, as in 33.25% overall win rate.
you are forgetting about crits from ls nins, wich is + 12.5% dmg from tai stat so your 97.5% becomes 110% and it is if ls nin team don't have lw with crit boost and even with +100% rerol you get twice chance to get bigger half of damage and we are talking about "ridiculosly overleveled" teams, so rerol is big enough to virtually always be on bigger half and 50% crit means that it will be +12.5% tai damage so if ls tai don't crit, it will lose to ls nin almost always.
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurt View Post
you are forgetting about crits from ls nins, wich is + 12.5% dmg from tai stat so your 97.5% becomes 110% and it is if ls nin team don't have lw with crit boost and even with +100% rerol you get twice chance to get bigger half of damage and we are talking about "ridiculosly overleveled" teams, so rerol is big enough to virtually always be on bigger half and 50% crit means that it will be +12.5% tai damage so if ls tai don't crit, it will lose to ls nin almost always.
I'm not forgetting it at all

crit doesn't impact the way ninjutsu damage so it's pointless to bring it in... nin on LS tai teams have the exact same effect and thus counteracts the reason to bring it in... Nin damage can never go above 97.5% of the nin.

And 100% reroll doesn't double your chances of rolling above 50%...


Let's just say you have 1-100 range and 100% reroll.

First roll has 50% chance to roll above 50.
Second roll also has a 50% chance to roll above 50, though thanks to the old attack saving itself you've got a little bit more.

Double of 50% is 100%, so no it's not double.. But through a fancy calculation formula on chance hidden somewhere on the forum years ago, the average damage output is around 33% more from 100% reroll..

Been thinking about making a simulator for ninja vs ninja fights for balancing and accurate data, haven't had time so far though... :|
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:41 AM   #50
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Hey i'm just doing same as everyone here, by telling only things convenient for my build) so don't worry be happy) as for the topic i think we should buff all summons with 1 element boost or they will be useless with current mechanic of nm. No one uses elemental damage for camping. For them to be competitive ninjas must have multiple elements or just make more lws with all ele damage in them. And then hawk summon will become usefull for camping to)

As for mec change i don't think it will be hard to implement, and make gennins 1 ele jounins 2 ele kages 3 ele and forbidden versions get+1 ele. Old campers will not suffer from it and new players will have more to choose from.

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Old 06-05-2013, 01:51 PM   #51
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Added in crusty and giant dogs...


Ryo Bird

Ryo
From 4%
To 5%

Umibouzu
EleAdv/Water Dmg
From 3/4
To 5/4

Pakkun
Exp
From 4%
To 6%

Giant Dogs
Tai/Exp
From 4/2
To 4/3

Ichibi
CritDmg/Wind Dmg
From 2/4
To 2/5

Sanbi
Tai/End
From 2/4
To 2.5/4

Giant Crustacean
Tai/Ryo
From 5.5/2
To 5.5/3

Gamabunta
Tai/FireDmg
From 4/4
To 6/4

Rokubi
End/Sta/EneSta
From 6/2/3
To 8/3/3

Shichibi
Reroll/CritD/End
From 3/2/2
To 4/2/3

Hachibi
Tai/CritD
From 4/2
To 5/2

Gamahiro
Tai/CritCha/CritDmg
From 3/1.5/1.5
To 4/1.5/1.5

Shinigami
EnemyAtt/Lv5D
From 2.5/5
To 3.5/5

Lesser Kyubi
Attack/EleAdv/Sta
From 2/3/5
To 4/3/5
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:36 PM   #52
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Conch King
Tai/Crit C/Drit D
From 3/3/0
To 3/1.5/1.5

This is a mistake since you can't change the ck anymore,it would make conch king imba.current stat is already balanced as seen in event.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:46 PM   #53
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it actually wouldn't make it imba (lol crit stuff), but it would make it too similar to gamahiro so scrapped
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:27 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Added in crusty and giant dogs...


Ryo Bird

Ryo
From 4%
To 5%

Umibouzu
EleAdv/Water Dmg
From 3/4
To 5/4

Pakkun
Exp
From 4%
To 6%

Giant Dogs
Tai/Exp
From 4/2
To 4/3

Ichibi
CritDmg/Wind Dmg
From 2/4
To 2/5

Sanbi
Tai/End
From 2/4
To 2.5/4

Giant Crustacean
Tai/Ryo
From 5.5/2
To 5.5/3

Gamabunta
Tai/FireDmg
From 4/4
To 6/4

Rokubi
End/Sta/EneSta
From 6/2/3
To 8/3/3

Shichibi
Reroll/CritD/End
From 3/2/2
To 4/2/3

Hachibi
Tai/CritD
From 4/2
To 5/2

Gamahiro
Tai/CritCha/CritDmg
From 3/1.5/1.5
To 4/1.5/1.5

Shinigami
EnemyAtt/Lv5D
From 2.5/5
To 3.5/5

Lesser Kyubi
Attack/EleAdv/Sta
From 2/3/5
To 4/3/5

So these are the finalized stats then?
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:33 PM   #55
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So these are the finalized stats then?
Everyone kept on whining on me to approve the stats so I did, sort of ;o


Some... most... of the summons will still be unused though... Like shichibi and stamina ones.. they're just not very useful ;o
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:34 PM   #56
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Right then, they are the final stats then, I've sent Udon the list :3
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:03 PM   #57
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I think it won't hurt having 1 atk/2 cd /5 wind dmg For ichibi or even 2 nin/2/4.its sad that sanbi wasn't rework but the buff for ichibi was useless right?umibouzu is useful for getting. Fire fnk due to elem adv and water dmg but ichibi is in bijuu isle so it should be slightly powerful as compared to early summons
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:26 PM   #58
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elemental summons like ichibi will always be useless... and sanbi really doesn't need any buff, it's fine just the way it is really.. Just got a consolation buff to separate it a bit more from conch
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:31 PM   #59
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Well Udon's already confirmed that he's recieved my list, so any changes now would be a little...late
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:24 PM   #60
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Gedou Mazou
from -Enemy Atk, Sta, Nin Imm increased by 3 / 5 / 0.5 each level
to -Enemy Atk, Sta, Nin Imm increased by 3 / 5 / 1 each level

you expecting someone to have twice Spraw's summon level? In fact due to imm Op i think it would be a good idea to boos it even to 2 per level. Why? Cos imm affect all fights and -imm only those vs imm teams so is less usefull
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