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Old 04-04-2013, 03:12 PM   #1
Superbun
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Default Critical Damage Restriction Thread

From the critical balancing discussion in the Minor Summon Boost thread, Udon has decided that a limit should be applied to critical damage. He felt that a total reconstruction of the system would be too confusing.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss and settle on a critical damage cap or possibly a suitable diminishing returns formula.

Udon made no mention of diminishing returns, he only stated a limit. However I think we can run it by him as an alternative if we can create a suitable formula.

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Old 04-04-2013, 04:55 PM   #2
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I suggest that the cap is the same as immunity cap.

Let the war begin.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:15 PM   #3
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I don't see any problem with CD. But it just me
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:47 AM   #4
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yep, second Mitoru. If CD, for example, has a 75 limit ff. summons will be affected:

Ichibi (CD/wind dmg - 2/4) will reach 50 CD by lvl 25
Shichibi (Reroll/CritD/End - 3/2/2) will reach 50 CD by lvl 25
Hachibi (Tai/CritD -4/2) will reach 50 CD by lvl 25
Gamahiro (Tai/CritCha/CritDmg -From 3/1.5/1.5) will reach 50 CD by lvl 33
DBB (Tai, Atk, CritDmg - 3.5 / 2 / 1) will reach 50 CD by lvl 50

how many campers will be affected by this?
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:52 AM   #5
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I don't get why you would cap critical when it requires a fair amount of extra work just to be equal to a regular seal 1 nin user. I used the basher just to check some things and...



Crit has a lot of potential and is much better suited for progression, but stacking 100 CD just to get the same potential as a seal 1 is already a grind. The fact that it can go over 100 doesn't really help that much since you need 300 CD just to double its effectiveness, so at minimum you would need an Ichibi, Shichibi or Hachibi of 138 lvls.



This gap is quite a bit larger but you also have to consider the gap between avg and max. The tai+hachibi combo should have a max att of 2104 and it avg's 787 less while the gap on the nin+sd is 108. Capping crit at 100 significantly drops the crits potential, since it isn't affected by reroll. Also, what happens when it comes to tai immunity, is the crit% converting tai to attack first and the remaining tai is subject to immunity or is the tai subject to immunity before it's even rolled to get a crit chance? because that brings the problem of having to stack -tai imm as well as crit d, which you can stack 1 or the other to 100 but not both.

So depending on what the answer to that question is, crit will require a cap if immunity can't avoid it or it shouldn't be capped so it can minimize how much it's nullified.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:20 PM   #6
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There is already a cap on crit chance, I don't understand the need for a cap on crit damage. The lack of a cap on the damage is the only thing that made a crit camp team appealing (at least to me) but with a cap, or smaller returns as you go up the scale pretty much means I'm back to the idea of an immunity/Attack team, as nothing else will ever be able to compete at the highest levels.. Kind of wish we could get our clan's skills reset to be re-spec'd out if this goes through since I'll bet we end up with a lot less crit campers
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:53 PM   #7
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It looks like most people have not read the discussion in the Minor Summon Boost thread http://www.ninjamanager.net/showthread.php?t=13829. Aenonar explains it quite clearly why criticals become a problem once crit damage reaches a high amount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuuya03 View Post
yep, second Mitoru. If CD, for example, has a 75 limit ff. summons will be affected:

Ichibi (CD/wind dmg - 2/4) will reach 50 CD by lvl 25
Shichibi (Reroll/CritD/End - 3/2/2) will reach 50 CD by lvl 25
Hachibi (Tai/CritD -4/2) will reach 50 CD by lvl 25
Gamahiro (Tai/CritCha/CritDmg -From 3/1.5/1.5) will reach 50 CD by lvl 33
DBB (Tai, Atk, CritDmg - 3.5 / 2 / 1) will reach 50 CD by lvl 50

how many campers will be affected by this?
Reaching the cap does not mean the team all of a sudden becomes useless. Crits are based on a percentage of your ninja's taijutsu. Even if you reach the cap your ninjas will continue to level up and gain more taijutsu, and thus crits will continue to get stronger. Using your 75 crit damage limit as an example:

At 500 tai, a crit would add 375 more tai.
At 1000 tai, a crit would add 750 more tai.
At 1500 tai, a crit would add 1125 more tai and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomieh View Post
I don't get why you would cap critical when it requires a fair amount of extra work just to be equal to a regular seal 1 nin user. I used the basher just to check some things and...



Crit has a lot of potential and is much better suited for progression, but stacking 100 CD just to get the same potential as a seal 1 is already a grind. The fact that it can go over 100 doesn't really help that much since you need 300 CD just to double its effectiveness, so at minimum you would need an Ichibi, Shichibi or Hachibi of 138 lvls.



This gap is quite a bit larger but you also have to consider the gap between avg and max. The tai+hachibi combo should have a max att of 2104 and it avg's 787 less while the gap on the nin+sd is 108. Capping crit at 100 significantly drops the crits potential, since it isn't affected by reroll. Also, what happens when it comes to tai immunity, is the crit% converting tai to attack first and the remaining tai is subject to immunity or is the tai subject to immunity before it's even rolled to get a crit chance? because that brings the problem of having to stack -tai imm as well as crit d, which you can stack 1 or the other to 100 but not both.

So depending on what the answer to that question is, crit will require a cap if immunity can't avoid it or it shouldn't be capped so it can minimize how much it's nullified.
Balancing crit for progression would most likely be done by buffing the summons.

The cap on crit damage however is mainly for campers. It's to prevent a team from being able to win against a much higher level team. This issue can be clearly seen in your 2nd set of simulations. At best a LS nin team can beat a team almost twice their levels. Your crit team on the other hand can beat a team almost 4 times their level. The fact that it was able to reach the 8th hit is further proof of how overpowered crit can become.

Crits are affected by immunity but then again so is every other team, so it's kind of an invalid point.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Crits are affected by immunity but then again so is every other team, so it's kind of an invalid point.
I have a question. Does the need to nerf critical damage have anything to do with an immunity nerf? Because it's been brought up countless times, and is countless times more op/annoying than crits. A single look at my fnk is enough.

Lvl 73 Zabuza fnk with crit chance/damage lws.
Attack without a crit - 550~
Attack with a crit - 770~. (Crit damage 93%)
Attack with regular power boosting lws - 733

So in my case criticals add me around 40 extra attack, with 50% chances but without a crit I lose 180. Yaaay crits!

* Yes, Zabuza has only 5 tai growth but the point is still valid.
* He's hs crit but both lws have crit chance AND damage so you know, doesn't matter.

If there should be a cap, I think max 75% EXTRA. Not including the base 25% crit damage. To balance out campers and not hurt progressers.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:51 PM   #9
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Superbun, no.. I read it. I just don't really see it as that much of a problem. I'm able to get 100% tai immunity on one of my jounins with just 7 more levels on my bronze camper's summon, and that seems to be perfectly acceptable to everyone (along with his 50% nin immunity) which will completely shut down any crit team. Attack beats Immunity beats re-roll/crit beats Attack. Isn't that how it is supposed to work?

Is the problem that crit teams seem to have an advantage over re-roll? Are we going to balance them together? Is re-roll going to get dimenishing returns as well? My fear is people are going to smash crit teams as viable due to the crit vs re-roll comparison to the point they can't compete against the attack teams (which they are supposed to be able to win against). If the entire issue is how crit teams compare to their re-roll counterparts (which is what this seems like) I'd much rather try to add in some system that reduces crit effectiveness against re-roll ninjas, by perhaps allowing players to select re-roll or crit focus for LS ninjas or something.

*edit*
Side note. I think the real issue here is the crit based summons. Currently, with the crit chance cap, as soon as you hit the cap a portion (or even a full half) of the stats you gain on that summon become meaningless. If you do the same to crit damage, then on some summons, a full 2/3 of the stats you gain would be worthless, which really hurts camp teams. Now, I suppose the alternative would be a multi-prong adjustment, that 1) puts in a cap for crit dmg as well as chance, 2) drastically increase both chance and dmg stats on various LWs to make the cap reachable on multiple ninjas without the heavy reliance on your summon and 3) reduce or remove the dmg and chance stats on the summons, while increasing the tai (or other stats) boosted so make the summons not become worthless
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:10 AM   #10
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Would it be easier just to have CD and RR have similar average attacks


CC of 50% CD of 100% for 100 tai, means 50% of the time you will hit 50 atk the other 50% of the time you will hit 200 tai which means 100 atk

Therefore, your average attack is 75 with 100 tai/50CC/100CD
THUS ninjutsu of 100, a reroll value must be assigned that equals average attack of 75.

For example, 100 CD = 500 RR

Therefore 1 CD = 5 RR
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:20 AM   #11
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Was there a suggestion tha crit will come from 50% tai and 50% nin or is that too disgusting?

I think this would make any tai advantage null and so the basic only stick, tai for stable damage and nin for random low/high.so back to topic. How about 125 max CD?

At kzaries, based on lunar2's old post (don't know if accurate) 100 cd = 150 reroll so 2/3 CD = 1 reroll
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:31 AM   #12
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It seems like everyone here is trying to balance crit vs ls nin which is completely pointless really. Robbing crit campers of their huge dmg potential would make the camping scene incredibly booring as in the future it will only consist of Immunity/-immunity and ATK campers. There will be no point of going crit or ls nin since there are so many huge immunity lws around that even ATK campers can get a huge amount of immunity so that a crit team needs to be higher lvl to win. Anyhow it is totally retarded to only compare crit to ls nin which is the weakest camping option as it is today. Saying immunity isn't an argument because it effects all teams is ill-advised cause an immunity team can switch lws around to be good vs ls nin or crit while the crit and ls nin team can't change their stat distribution. Also with the amount of -immunity lws giving a maximum of -60 enemy immunity it is easy to see that low exp teams will be able to beat these specialised teams regardless of exp difference since they can reach 100% immunity without that much trouble.

Imo to be able to balance all teams we need to set a maximum summon lvl that'd basically set a max value to critdmg/immunity/-immunity then we can really get to work on how the game should be balanced with all the different teams and really create "the circle of camping" (as the circle of elements).

If the issue is pushed and a cap will be added I say crit should still have the highest damage potential. Anything else would be too cruel to all the ppl who have spent years building crit teams.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:09 PM   #13
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How about adding random to crit like atk= (tai/2*(rand(1 to how much CD a ninja has))*(cc/100). I just wanted to change the CD as random/variable.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:58 PM   #14
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The point I was trying to make was, if immunity nerfs the tai before it can roll critical there shouldn't be a cap because 300%CD vs 90%imm is only 20% of tai. If all tai was used to roll crit first and the imm only blocked the remaining tai not used, there should be a cap because it would only take 100CD to render tai imm useless. But as it stands, tai imm renders CD useless.

If ls nin or hybrid attack teams have trouble against stacking crit , all they need to is get reg Hidan with 800 and 2 lw's. By hard they can have 86imm, extreme 87imm and impo 97imm, hs or not, it's still a sufficient amount to wreck CD teams. Avoiding CD is easier than stacking it and if a crit build tried to use giant rhino to avoid imm then they couldn't stack enough cd to be truly effective since there's only 6 lw's over 15 CD,1 over 20 and you need to get to FM to find 3 of them.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seglarkungen View Post
It seems like everyone here is trying to balance crit vs ls nin which is completely pointless really. Robbing crit campers of their huge dmg potential would make the camping scene incredibly booring as in the future it will only consist of Immunity/-immunity and ATK campers. There will be no point of going crit or ls nin since there are so many huge immunity lws around that even ATK campers can get a huge amount of immunity so that a crit team needs to be higher lvl to win. Anyhow it is totally retarded to only compare crit to ls nin which is the weakest camping option as it is today. Saying immunity isn't an argument because it effects all teams is ill-advised cause an immunity team can switch lws around to be good vs ls nin or crit while the crit and ls nin team can't change their stat distribution. Also with the amount of -immunity lws giving a maximum of -60 enemy immunity it is easy to see that low exp teams will be able to beat these specialised teams regardless of exp difference since they can reach 100% immunity without that much trouble.

Imo to be able to balance all teams we need to set a maximum summon lvl that'd basically set a max value to critdmg/immunity/-immunity then we can really get to work on how the game should be balanced with all the different teams and really create "the circle of camping" (as the circle of elements).

If the issue is pushed and a cap will be added I say crit should still have the highest damage potential. Anything else would be too cruel to all the ppl who have spent years building crit teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomieh View Post
The point I was trying to make was, if immunity nerfs the tai before it can roll critical there shouldn't be a cap because 300%CD vs 90%imm is only 20% of tai. If all tai was used to roll crit first and the imm only blocked the remaining tai not used, there should be a cap because it would only take 100CD to render tai imm useless. But as it stands, tai imm renders CD useless.

If ls nin or hybrid attack teams have trouble against stacking crit , all they need to is get reg Hidan with 800 and 2 lw's. By hard they can have 86imm, extreme 87imm and impo 97imm, hs or not, it's still a sufficient amount to wreck CD teams. Avoiding CD is easier than stacking it and if a crit build tried to use giant rhino to avoid imm then they couldn't stack enough cd to be truly effective since there's only 6 lw's over 15 CD,1 over 20 and you need to get to FM to find 3 of them.
Totally agreed.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:53 PM   #16
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TL;DR

Are you seriously trying to nerf crit damage when... ermm... immunity campers *BLEEP* obliterate every single team?

smh

FIRST change immunity system, THEN balance CD.

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Old 04-08-2013, 02:10 PM   #17
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The immunity system can't be seriously nerfed until crit has been dealt with. Why? because there is nothing to stop crit otherwise. It will pretty much be an auto-win against any sort of team. Immunity has their immunity reduction counterpart at least (from abilities/LWs and summons), whereas crit only has tai immunity.

The original plan was to nerf this with a immunity nerf following shortly. However due to the responses so far, we'll have to look at an alternative solution.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbun View Post
The immunity system can't be seriously nerfed until crit has been dealt with. Why? because there is nothing to stop crit otherwise. It will pretty much be an auto-win against any sort of team. Immunity has their immunity reduction counterpart at least (from abilities/LWs and summons), whereas crit only has tai immunity.

The original plan was to nerf this with a immunity nerf following shortly. However due to the responses so far, we'll have to look at an alternative solution.
I thought immunity can killed by ATK team, and Immunity Kills the Critical.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:38 PM   #19
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Attack bypasses immunity, however an attack summon generally only accounts for 25% or less of the overall attack. So at higher levels the immunity still wins.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:18 PM   #20
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So... the plan is the nerf a team that has zero ability to combat immunity before we address immunity teams? Seems like you should balance immunity and see where that leaves crit/re-roll teams before you adjust them. Generally speaking when you are dealing with game balance, you either go from top down, or bottom up (i.e. you either boost the most under performing teams (re-roll), or nerf the most dominating (immunity), you generally don't start off by nerfing the second or third best team comp. Jus' saying
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