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Old 01-25-2010, 07:36 AM   #1
udon
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Default Attributes' worth

I need some help defining the worth of attributes!

What I mean is... 1 atk = 2 tai and so on. And it could be argued if it's exactly 1atk = 2tai with all the immunities, but we have to consider there's critical strike* and reroll too so...

Not only the current attributes, but I'd also like input on how much Endurance and Critical Strike might be worth. Information about those can be found here: http://www.ninjamanager.net/showpost...&postcount=256

Having a rough list of the values will help immensly when creating LWs and later when we balance the ninjas/equipment.

We could use ATK as the base for our comparisons. Also, some attributes' strength grow exponentially together with others (nin+reroll, tai+crit), so adding some notes to those would also be good. For example, at a certain point, +50 atk is actually worth less than +50 nin and +x reroll or something. If possible, just some very basic chart with values at certain intervals.

ATK
TAI
NIN
STA
RES
ind RES (Wind Resist,,,)
E-ADV (Elemental Advantage)
ind E-ADV (Wind Advantage,,,)
REROLL
E-DMG (Fire Damage,,,)
eATKdown (Enemy ATK down)
eTAIdown
eNINdown
eSTAdown
Ryo+
NinjaExp+
TAIimmune
NINimmune
ELEMimmune
ItemFind
Death5
Endurance
CritStrike


I think we have had some calculations and actually got some values like how much Reroll was worth etc, so if someone can link to those or maybe they have some of their own calculations, post here :)

Yay!
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:54 AM   #2
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Hopefully some math specialists with game experience can shed some light on these... I would just like to quickly point out though that +1 atk or -1 nme atk will always be greater than 2 tai since it's static and unreduced by immunities and such. So it's worth should far exceed it's translated worth on paper.
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:32 PM   #3
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This took a long time for me to write out, so please excuse any unintentional errors in my math, if there are any.

ATK (I'll use this as the base stat, and assume the new seal system) = 1.0 per point


TAI = Base worth 0.5: (~92% in Arena, 112.5% with 1 seal, slightly diminishing returns if camping due to higher presence of the tons of Tai Immunity abilities [Nin only has Hanzou to deal with] and LWs, I'll say 85% in the camping role for now)

NIN = Base worth 0.5: (~92% in Arena, 100+X% per Y% reroll added (see below for info over 100% reroll), multiple factors for World Map [Start with ~80% due to low seal tendencies to average fewer hits, but also double whatever reroll multiplier you are using because it will raise the average hit count], slightly diminishing returns if camping due to LWs and Katsuyu, I'll say 90% in the camping role for now - remember that in this new seal system, 19 seal does the same thing to nin as it does to tai)

Reroll's multiplier: Prior to 100% reroll, add 0.3% to it per point of reroll (at 110% reroll, the multiplier is 103%, at 150%, it's 115%, etc). For points in the 101%-200%, start with 130% and add 0.15% per point (at 150%, its 130% + 107.5% = 137.5%). For 201-300%, use 0.09%. 301%-400%, use 0.06%. And so on as stated below.

It follows a pattern which I'll try to demonstrate: we've established that 100% reroll = +30-33.333% to average damage for points of nin, I'm using 30% for the above figures. Well, for the change on the actual nin range, it's half of that (from averaging 50% on the range, to 66.666%, or +16.666%). Which is 1/6, or worded differently, 1/(2*3). For all points between 101%-200%, their total worth is 1/(3*4). For all points between 201%-300%, the total worth is 1/(4*5). Why this is, I'll demonstrate if I have to, but it would just derail the thread I think. But it follows a pretty obvious pattern that can cover all values of reroll.

STA (Can't put a base value on this stat, since the multipliers would be massive. For World Map, it has far greater worth since ninjas, on average, live for several blows [in Arena, the average is just under 2]. In Arena, you generally do not expect a ninja to score more than two kills, so for there, Stamina is meaningless on the first roll and just means the difference between 70% (0 stam) and 90% (100 stam) on the second roll. But you will also have ninjas where you will be fortunate just for them to get one kill, and for those ninjas, Stamina is nearly worthless. Then, there's also mis-slot considerations to deal with - but this is not a major factor outside of camping, and when camping is involved, time and LWs will eventually fix the need anyway)

RES (Well, we know that 100 RES blocks 100 Elem Adv [which all ninjas basically have, innately] and that 100 Elem Adv typically adds 35% damage, though the case of 45% is much more common than the 25% case. But it's also only in play 20% of the time, those cases where you are at elemental disadvantage. Furthermore, in the Arena case, there is such a thing as a lost cause, where your Res is low enough that raising it some still won't save you from an inevitable kill, or where your Res is so high that adding another point has no effect, or where World Map's Elem Adv is tiny. Put this all together - blocks around 0.35% damage per point, but is only on 20% of the time, and might just be useless (I'll throw in an 80% multiplier to deal with this), and we come to a worth of 0.056% Attack per point of Res. Worded differently, it takes about 18 Res to equal the worth of a 1% Attack increase (of the opponent - you're blocking their damage). For most teams, this basically means that Res is easy to ignore, nearly worthless.

ind RES (Same as above, honestly, but with the difference that it pins you to a particular element, making it less convenient to use elemental changes often)

E-ADV (Same as Res, but with some notable changes. Since this adds to damage rather than subtracting from theirs, it becomes more like 18 Adv=+1% self Attack. Also, Adv has significant worth on the Ladder because two categories are dedicated to it [Elemental Damage, Max Hit]. In the Arena, high Adv means you can choose targets that much easier. And of course, a slight increase in worth on the World Map since dealing damage is preferable to blocking damage. Overall, a point of Adv is worth a fair deal more than a point of Res - perhaps 2-3 times more, in fact.)

ind E-ADV (Same as Adv without some flexibility)

REROLL (Check the NIN section above for my take on reroll. It's worth roughly double on the World Map as well, due to how it prolongs the average life of a ninja on a mission. When I did my tests before, 100% reroll added around 60% average damage to some nin-heavy [90%] ninjas, double the typical 30% per-roll increase in average damage.)

E-DMG = 0.2 Attack, perhaps only half that on the World Map due to the number of no-element enemies there. But the worth can be increased situationally, say for example you've got a low Res team with Gamabunta, if your ninjas are Lightning, their Res weakness will be covered quite well due to the tendency of Wind ninjas wanting to challenge you. Still, for the most part, 0.2 is accurate.

eATKdown = Base worth 1.0 Attack, but with notable differences (First, in arena - the stronger your ninja is relative to your average opponent, the more worth EAD has relative to Attack. The weaker your ninja is relative to its average opponent, the more worth Attack has relative to EAD. The reason behind this lies in how Stamina decay works in lowering damage. Ask several of my clan mates - I've actually given a lesson on this very topic a few times. Secondly, EAD's effect is reduced based on the opponent's decay, not yours - this makes it marginally better when in equip/ability form, but has no bearing on Shinigami since the bonus is always present and will be present as they build decay. Third, EAD's worth is significantly less on World Map, since the goal there is not just to roll higher, but also to roll for more damage to a health bar.) Overall, since it relies on a number of [admittedly minor] factors in both directions compared to Attack, I think it's safe to say that it is worth a little more in Arena (in equip form only), and a little less in World Map (all forms). 1.0 Attack = 1.0 EAD is a fair statement, though, with the exception of campers where being more powerful is assured, inflating EAD's worth somewhat.

(Note: You may be wondering at this point why I'm not leveling Shinigami. The reason is simple - it is counter-productive to getting challenges, and is on diminishing returns per level relative to other summons)


eTAIdown (See TAI, but marginally better when you are stronger than your opponent, marginally worse when you are weaker, due to how stamina decay works to lower damage)

eNINdown (See NIN, but marginally better when you are stronger than your opponent, marginally worse when you are weaker, due to how stamina decay works to lower damage)

eSTAdown (Same as Stamina on World Map, marginally worse in Arena [you cannot choose the target of the effect, whereas ordering who gets Stamina boosts in your team can allow the strongest members to reach 100+ Stamina])

Ryo+ (Huge in progression relative to camping, where diminishing returns kick in big time. Has highest worth in early Red Fox, where the base gain is 4 in arena, 5 in defend missions. Different people would rate this differently, though most have high demand for ryo gain even if it means losing more.)

NinjaExp+ (Rounds to nearest point of exp like Ryo+ does, inflating the worth of smaller amounts of Exp+. Worth a lot more in LW hunting/mission farming, where you know in advance what the likely mission result is and who will want that exp boost. It's an okay stat for Arena, but keep in mind that the boost is only as big as the boost that ninja gets from an extra level or few, and that the payoff is delayed - they have to actually amass the exp before being stronger. On the other hand, when you do reach that payoff, you can remove the exp equips in favor of more power. Finally, in the camping role, value is almost entirely diminished as few targets will actually grant kill exp, and those who do will be red barred quickly.)

TAIimmune (Calculate Tai's base worth for the opposing ninja, then multiply it by their total Tai, then divide that result by 100. Obviously, worth is on growing returns as your opponent is stronger, and has highest worth to camping. Worth somewhat less on World Map as dealing more damage is preferable to blocking damage, as I stated earlier.)

NINimmune (Calculate Nin's base worth for the opposing ninja, then multiply it by their total Nin, then divide that result by 100. Obviously, worth is on growing returns as your opponent is stronger, and has highest worth to camping. Worth somewhat less on World Map as dealing more damage is preferable to blocking damage, as I stated earlier.)

ELEMimmune (Even less worth than Res, on average. The reason is simple - calculate the opponents Adv [innate base is 100, add equips/summon] minus your Res. If the result is 100, it's worth the same as a point of Res. If not, it's worth (Result/100) as much as a point of Res - and usually the opponent's Adv is 100 or a little higher, while your Res grows per level. Therefore, this stat is generally worth a lot less than Res, even less than half as much at times, and is pretty darned worthless.)

ItemFind (Hard to say. The average player hunts about one LW per difficulty - some don't get any, a much smaller group of us stockpile them. More itemfind means more World Energy, since you find the item sooner on average. But the worth of this depends fully on the average drop rate of what you're hunting, as well as how much Itemfind you already have, since the stat itself is on diminishing returns [It takes 1900 IF to find an item twice as fast as 900 IF, but with 900 IF you'll already find it fast. Whereas if you have only say 200 IF, it takes only 500 IF to double the slower rate.])

Death5 (Points after 100% are currently worthless, and the stat itself is worthless on World Map. Very hard to evaluate in Arena - in high quantity, the opponent is able to switch out ninjas that can be affected before the challenge goes through. But most teams aren't capable of doing that effectively. However, the only time Death5 gets high, outside of Anko, is with a high level Shinigami, which means the opponent is likely a camper themselves. And if they're a camper, there's a much higher chance that they can dodge the Death5 - I once won a Kage challenge fight in which the opponent had a Lv19 Shinigami and I had five ninjas who were able to be hit by it - I had four of those five on my bench for the fight and won it with some of my bench ninjas instead. But not all rosters are like mine, and a lot of high end teams can be wrecked on occasion by the stat. Also, has some bearing on ladder, as there is a category dedicated to it.)

Endurance (Diminishing returns of course, but at a slow rate. Let's look at 100 Endurance - it removes a third of total decay effects. In early rolls, this stat is worsted by the same amount of Stamina, but unlike Stamina, this stat retains most of its effect past 100. In later rolls (only a World Map concern, really), it begins to scale quite well. Ultimately its worth is not quite as much as Stamina, but the two pair up much better than using either of them alone. In progression, it is worth slightly less than Stamina in both areas. In camping, it results in worse World Map results (you'll have reason to want ninjas to die quicker in missions, trust me on this), better Battle Arena results (since reaching Stamina goals is a foregone conclusion), and worse challenge count (you'll want negative, not positive, Endurance to gain more challenges) and exp intake (since you win fights quicker, fewer ninjas gain exp from the fight).

CritStrike (100 Crit = +25% Tai, so 1 Crit = +0.25% Tai. Pretty simple, really - scales very well over time and would be in highest demand for camping. It will also give Tai-heavy ninjas a strong reason to go low seal - it is likely to be better than high seal for them, since they get the best of both worlds - stable damage, and a seal bonus that raises the average. People who are focused on the Arena, however, still benefit somewhat more from being high seal. An interesting stat to look at.)
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Old 01-26-2010, 02:34 PM   #4
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Lunar, thanks a bunch for your input!

I'll try do a list with just the values with atk as base and then you all can comment on what might be wrong!

If anyone else have input just post!
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Old 01-26-2010, 05:26 PM   #5
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Hmmm, I agree with the most of what Lunar had to say.

Just have some comments that may want to be thought about.

Just would like to say that I think both Elemental Advantage and Resistance have the same worth. For example, it's like saying what's better, a Sword or a Shield. They are both as useful as each other, though that could be argued either side, generally you'll come to the conclusion there. I just think that Res is an important Stat, however, due to there being better stats out there it's not one you'd want to boost, same as Elemental immunity and Elemental Advantage, although Ele Adv has it's advantages on the world map.

I like the idea of Endurance, and that will be a good one to use in a team, both from World Map and Campers, mainly for Kages.

Critical Strike is also a great thing to look at. However I question it's effect on Ninja's such as Tobi, which have pretty even growth and the added damage applied to both Tai and Nin will be interesting, and I think could be overpowered, however I'll think about that another time in greater detail.

The only question that's brought to mind now is, what about Seals. Majority of High Nin characters are low Seal and High Tai Ninja's are High Seal (Or so I believe) and with there being both benefits on either side for both types of Ninja's, they'll need to be re allocated new starting seals closer to 10? Or may there's something Im missing :/
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:56 AM   #6
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So I tried translating Lunars thoughts to just a few numbers:

Code:
ATK                                    1 atk
TAI                                    0.5 atk
                    0 crit                0.5 atk
                    50 crit               0.56 atk
                    100 crit              0.63 atk
NIN                                    0.5 atk
                    0 reroll              0.4 atk (80%)
                    50 reroll             0.48 atk
                    100 reroll            0.55 atk
                    150 reroll            0.69 atk
STA                                    ~0.2 atk*
RES                                    ~0.05 atk*
ind RES                                ~0.03 atk*
E-ADV                                ~0.1 atk*
ind E-ADV                            ~0.09 atk*
REROLL                               ~0.5 atk*                (1 reroll = +0.166% nin)
                100 nin/<100 reroll        0.17 atk
                200 nin                    0.32 atk
                300 nin                    0.5 atk
                400 nin                    0.67 atk
E-DMG                               ~0.2 atk
eATKdown                            1 atk
eTAIdown                            0.5 atk
eNINdown                            0.5 atk
eSTAdown                            ~0.15 atk*
Ryo+                                x
NinjaExp+                           x
TAIimmune                            ~1.5 atk*
                    0 tai                0 atk
                    50 tai               0.25 atk
                    100 tai              0.5 atk
                    200 tai              1 atk
                    300 tai              1.5 atk
                    400 tai              2 atk
NINimmune                            ~1.5 atk*
                    200 nin                1 atk
ELEMimmune                            x
ItemFind                              x
Death5                                x*
Endurance                            ~0.15 atk
CritChance                           ~0.37 atk*
                    100 tai                0.125 atk
                    200 tai                0.25 atk
                    300 tai                0.375 atk
                    400 tai                0.5 atk
CritDamage                           ~0.75 atk*
                    100 tai                0.25 atk
                    200 tai                0.5 atk
                    300 tai                0.75 atk
                    400 tai                1.0 atk
x just means it can't really be measured. * means it has to be evaluated from case to case. I had some trouble getting nin+reroll right so please take an extra look at those.

Will have to start adding low seal tai ninjas ;)

It's important that this worth-table is as fair as possible so it can be used for balance of all equipment and ninjas/summons, as well as maybe some kind of custom/random item creation system which could be fun.

Edit: Maybe the reroll worth mentioned should be cut in half, looks a bit too much now. Probably forgot that nin!=atk
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:42 AM   #7
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First thoughts:

You probably meant 0.09 on ind-adv, not 0.9 (typo). Also, Adv/Res and their ind-forms are stats that scale upwards in worth (even though their base worth is low), so that probably should be accounted for (the stronger the ninja, the more damage an Adv/Res difference in a fight will generate, it's why I used Attack % as a reference point in my previous post).

The reroll amounts are correct, except that I think they're a tad too high on the rounding. 1/3 for nin (which is the 0.30-0.3333 often quoted) , 1/6 for attack (50% of range, to 66.6% of range, is a one third increase). Say you have 100 nin, 0 seal. That's a 0-100 range, 50 average. 100 reroll takes it to roughly 66 (66.67), which is a ~16 atk/~32 nin increase to the average. However, since seals are 1 minimum and not 0, and since reroll can produce the same roll as the first, it's not an exact one-third increase. 0.15 is a suitable number to use, I think, since that reflects a 30% increase to the average damage, and 30% is a suitable number that takes into account 1 seal's range and the special case of tied rolls.

Tai/Nin Immunity are each worth slightly more going by your chart against opponents who have crit/reroll, whichever is relevant to that stat.

That's about all I see that should be changed. I'll give it a closer look sometime later.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:05 AM   #8
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Whoops, fixed the elemental adv. Yeah I'll put an * to the e.adv because when it's added to high level abilities/items, because damage gain can be really big.

I'll test a bit with 1 reroll = +0.15% nin and see if there's a big difference.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by:
Quote:
Tai/Nin Immunity are each worth slightly more going by your chart against opponents who have crit/reroll, whichever is relevant to that stat.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:52 PM   #9
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Well, it's basically going off your own chart for nin/tai:

Code:
TAI                                    0.5 atk
                    0 crit                0.5 atk
                    50 crit               0.56 atk
                    100 crit              0.63 atk
NIN                                    0.5 atk
                    0 reroll              0.4 atk (80%)
                    50 reroll             0.48 atk
                    100 reroll            0.55 atk
                    150 reroll            0.69 atk
but in regards to the opponent, since tai/nin immunity apply to those stats.
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Old 01-30-2010, 04:19 PM   #10
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I think this is what he means by example

Quote:
TAIimmune per 1% vs. Seal 1 - 50 crit
0 tai 0 atk
50 tai 0.28 atk
100 tai 0.56 atk
200 tai 1.12 atk
300 tai 1.68 atk
400 tai 2.24 atk
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Old 02-07-2010, 05:48 PM   #11
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Hm... does this table work for summons as well? because currently that's the result:

Code:
Comparing Worth: (1 Attack = 1)
-16 Chakra
Mechanical Bird: X
Ninja Dogs: X
Nin-Kame: 3
Pakkun: X
Umibouzu: 0.7

-22 Chakra
Enma: 0.8

-32 Chakra
Katsuyu: 4
Manda: 3.6
Gamabunta: 2.8

-40 Chakra
Spirit Dragon: 5
Shinigami: X

-66 Chakra
Lesser Kyuubi: 3.3
Anyways, I'll try to edit my summons with the value of chakra cost/10 and see what it looks like, for balancing purposes. Elem Adv, Resist and Endurance seems off.

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Old 02-07-2010, 09:24 PM   #12
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

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Old 02-07-2010, 10:54 PM   #13
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You're basically saying the exact same thing I said about reroll, in a different format.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:48 AM   #14
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*shrugs* udon wants the exact numbers, here are the exact numbers.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:52 AM   #15
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Note: seal is 2,5% rounded down
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:29 PM   #16
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It's impossible to cite exact numbers - it's based on 2.5%-97.5% which rounds down, and you have to factor in identical rolls - there is no guarantee that the reroll value is different from the original value.
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:07 PM   #17
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Would you be willing to explain the effect of identical rolls? I have searched the forum and found no topics on the subject.
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:47 PM   #18
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Well, on a reroll, people would assume that 50% of the time it rolls higher, 50% of the time it rolls lower, and often use that when determining the effects of reroll. But those people miss the times where you roll a 67 and reroll a 67 - which is the same case as rolling lower, since it will have no effect.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:57 AM   #19
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

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Old 02-09-2010, 02:42 AM   #20
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Yeah, it's not a huge factor, it's just a factor that exists.

Keep in mind that the new 1 seal is going to give tai-heavy ninjas a reason to go low seal, and they will gain 40% reroll whether they have a strong use for it or not (same applies to crit and high nin).

The 1 seal factor is certainly the larger of the two, though, and a reason why I suggested using 30% as a base rather than 33.333% (one-third).
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