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Old 05-14-2013, 03:21 PM   #41
Gurt
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and that is why my last suggest is to add it to ls nin summons. it's perfect as they can beat crit teams and it wont give them any advantages against other teams.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:53 PM   #42
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and that is why my last suggest is to add it to ls nin summons. it's perfect as they can beat crit teams and it wont give them any advantages against other teams.
Doesn't make it any less useless against all other teams
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:51 PM   #43
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well it is the point of that boost to make it powerfull against crit teams and at same point do not boost it against others. as for uslessness: only usefull stats for ALL builds are +tai,+nin,+attack and +immunities all other are useless for some teams(like +stamina is useless if all ninjas already have 200+ stamina) so why are they even created? and i'm only repeating your opinion. you were all for nerfing crit teams because they are killing ls nins like they are nothing. i'm suggesting a solution of that and you don't like it because it involve only crit teams. so it's safe to presume you simply want to boost ls nin teams agaist all campers so they can overpower everything. then simply use immunity team and be OP)
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:51 PM   #44
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It's safe to presume that you're plain wrong. -crit is simply a bad idea.


And stamina summons have their uses, although only +stamina summons are pretty useless since you only need so much of it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:57 PM   #45
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-immunity just wastes stats on items/ninjas/summons when the enemy doesn't have any immunity to remove, hence it's just garbage in those situations. -crit etc is just as must waste of stats
True but only for summons really. Most ppl are just lazy about changing lws but most of the useless stats could be avoided by swapping lws. Anyhow I really agree on it beeing a bad "fix".

How about giving ls an extra ability so that ls nin becomes better vs crit.

Evasion: 25% chance to completely block/evade a critical attack

Will overall nerf crit a bit without messing up progression and ls nin's win % would go up by a fair bit.

Also one could add a truestrike ability to do something about immunity: 25% chance to bypass all enemy immunity? Might have been a better fix than -enemyimmunity if it trustrike had been capped at 50%.

Just sprouting random ideas here :)
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:28 AM   #46
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Aeno you repeating my thought but with different words and then tell i'm wrong so i can't agree. and "It's safe to presume that you're plain wrong. -crit is simply a bad idea." is not an argument. You said it's polluting space in stats, but if it's only on a few summons like SD then no one but ls nin campers will even use it and to them it'll give big boost against 1 type of campers. is't not like SD will immediately became useless with it. Try to EXPLAIN why -crit is bad without "it is bad because i said so" Every stat is a waste of space it some situations: for example you got +30 atack summon with les than 100 tai\nin on all your ninjas and enemy got -150 enemy attack summon. these +30 attack of your is "a waste of space" in this situation. i know it's a rare situation, but it's still there and no one is protected from it.
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:50 AM   #47
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Think about it for like 5 seconds and you'll hopefully see the clear difference between what I say and what you say -.-'

@Seglar - A proper fix for crit would be for the best really, although they could be interesting for new stats.. And yeah truestrike would have been good, but immunity still needs a proper fix just like crit, as in a diminishing returns system like reroll
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:34 AM   #48
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let me try to explain last time, then i'll mute myself.it'll be long post and i need to start with immunity "fix" because all your arguments is build on it. at some of threads it forum there is a table with "attack" weight of all stats and there 1 immunity = 1 attack = 1 minus enemy immunity bur it's wrong because at 100 tai, 1 tai immunity weight 0.5 (1% from 100 tai = 1 tai =0.5 attack), at 200 tai it equal to 1 attack, at 400 tai it's equal 2 attack and so on and immunity works always because all ninjas have tai and nin (even lee for some reason). as for -enemy immunity it worth 0 if enemy don't have any immunity and equals immunity if enemy have it, but only if enemy have same number of immunity or more simple example you have 30 imm. and i have 45 minus e. imm. 15 of my "attack weight" points is really useless. it happend because base stat with wich imm, and -imm work are diffirent. imm. works with tai/nin and -imm. works with imm. it's like comparing color and temperature (wich is better green or hot?) so in general imm. outweight -imm. (at some points they are equal and at all other -imm. way less).so imho immunity should weight 2-3 attack(or even more) and -immunity=<0.5 attack.the so called "BAD fix" is bad only in a way it's implemented.it's better to add -imm. to summons used in a builds wich should be strong against imm. teams like manda.(best summon with -imm. is juubi but it needs a boost to 3/1/1 imho) now for +-crit chance. the base stat it's implemented is a chace to do a crit attack, in this they are equal, but +crit still outweight -crit in a way they do it +crit always a good thing as it raises you offensive ability and -crit good only against crit teams. imho +crit should weight > than 1 attack and -crit should weight <= 0.5 attack and right way to fix crit teams is to add -crit to teams wich must be stronger than crit teams (in your opinion it's ls nin teams).your ways to solve problem is to nerf crit against all teams is what i call "bad fix".
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:26 AM   #49
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I want to see a numbers break down to show crit is overpowered against any teams other than reroll. I don't believe it is, and thus I don't support an across the board nerf to crit teams in any form. If reroll teams and crit teams can't smash on attack teams, then there is no point for having them as campers at all. Immunity already destroys reroll and crit, so there is no overpowered argument there.

The only thing left to compare is how crit stacks against reroll and if in that case crit is too powerful, crit should only be adjusted in relation to reroll teams. I don't care how it is done, if you don't like the idea of a -crit stat fine; but it shouldn't be based on simply LS, because you can run LS in attack or immunity teams, it would need to be based off reroll over X amount, where X > 40.

Crit is not so strong as to need an across the board nerf, ask Seg how his forbidden crit team approaching 10000 team exp stacks up against my 8000 team exp bronze camp immunity team and then come tell me crit teams are overpowered.
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Old 05-15-2013, 09:29 AM   #50
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I don't think we need to be adding more stats to complicate the formula. I also don't get where people are getting the idea that crit teams are "crushing" anything other than progression. Just look at the Rankings, the only crit summons in the top 50 teams are all immunity hybrids. The only exception is Udon and he clearly made that team for progression since he doesn't send out challenges. So who is this mysterious person who is dominating the PvP scene with a strictly crit team?

For reroll teams to be complaining is just beyond me, you literally put all your faith in just 1 stat, that can randomly roll from 0-97% and you're surprised you're losing to teams that can't hit less than 50%(unless they're affected by immunity). A reroll team could just use balanced stat nin for LS like the 4/3, 4/4 or 5/5 and you wouldn't have the problem of hitting low and crits will mean something but if you pick a 1/6, 1/7 or 1/9 you have amazingly good and bad potential. Especially when you need to roll over 50% in 6 of a possible 12 fights. but strictly nin based LS team are taking a big risk that LS tai team aren't. If you are facing a HS team with crit chance your odds are even worse since that team not only uses at least 50% it has immunity :D

Don't really need to say anything for attacks teams since they're all hybrids, if anyone is dumb enough to make a hybrid without immunities...
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:44 PM   #51
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items/ninjas with crit wouldn't get a nerf, but the overall crit system needs a diminishing returns formula to make it more comparable to reroll, as does immunity. Of course everything else would need to be adjusted to the new system so the only ones who would actually notice the difference are those with insane amounts of it, which is what the whole issue is about.

Default LS nin vs tai is pretty much equal, but once you go above that crit just knocks it out of the window
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:04 PM   #52
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Quote:
the overall crit system needs a diminishing returns formula to make it more comparable to reroll
Aenonar... I know that on some level you understand the point myself and others are making...

You are taking the way crit matches against one type of team, and using that as justification for across the board nerfs to the entire team dynamic. I'm sorry you chose to play LS nin, and that you feel it under performs against crit... Boost reroll to make it competitive then. Nerf'n crit because reroll turns out to be a craptastic camp choice due to the diminishing returns isn't the correct path.

Figure some way to make reroll stats fall off less (some multiplier every 100 reroll?) or as has been said, if you are determined to nerf crit teams, it should ONLY be in relation to reroll teams because that is the only team you or anyone else has shown that crit may be stronger than intended against. You don't like -crit stats, great, fine, come up with something else then, suggesting that crit dmg be given a cap, or some diminishing returns equation (which effectively give it a soft cap) completely destroys the viability of crit camp teams so why not figure out how to make reroll work better at the upper end?

QOL boosts are almost always a better idea than nerfs anyways, especially when you are looking at a team type that isn't even the strongest.
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:10 PM   #53
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1. Check facts first. I mostly play HS teams because they're OP. But I'm also constantly trying out various team builds such as crit/reroll/hybrids etc

2. I don't "feel" that reroll is inferior to crit, it IS inferior to crit. I've already proven it with math so gg.

3. Immunity / high seal needs a nerf. It's way too overpowered and effective. We all know it and it has been known for years. Hence why I'm pushing for a fix for both immunity and crit at the same time to make them all valid. This doesn't mean crit gets a nerf, it gets fixed. Heck it could even mean it gets a boost, except for the extreme levels that is gamebreaking. And yes I've already got an idea for a fix, just need to get time to work out the details. But I've already given out the idea so others can think about it as well, which is a diminishing returns system like reroll. -crit will do nothing more than further confuse and at best delay the issue, which is what -immunity is doing atm.

4. As always, the game is already way faster than intended. Reroll has gotten constant nerfs because it's classed as overpowered hence why it's definitely not going to get boosted to crit/immunity levels.


And if no one else has noticed, seal is currently balanced at ~12-3% bonus to the ninjas.. Well, except HS which gets bonus endurance for some reason...

crit = 12.5% boost
reroll = ~12.7%
HS = ~10-11% damage reduction + 60 endurance, which on 6 attacks is ~12.6% damage increase
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:34 PM   #54
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I can buy the crit nerf IF we fix immunity at the same time and basically puts all team types on the same page camping wise. Although I think the best way of doing that is by ballancing every team type vs atk campers. By ballancing everyone against a team type that should be good against anyone things should be able to become as good as it gets.

Also I'd hardly say it is proven that crit campers are overpowered. I know the math you did Aeono and you miss one big thing when comparing ls nin and ls tai. Lws! While there are several +20 tai immunity lws and abilities there are just one for nin I can think of which would be Danzous 800. There might be a few more nin immunity lws but I am very sure that while an ls nin could put several ninjas on +60% tai immunity the crit team might be able to get one to that amount. Then ofc the crit team could have some immunity reducing lws but one would need some serious cash to buy enough custom lws to nullify that advantage as there are not that many big -enemy tai immunity lws. Any simulations has to be done with this in mind or some team type will benefit from having more good lws while others suffer from having to use sub optimal lws.

Also as Bloody said, my crit progression team looses HARD to his bronze camper which is 1-2k exp lower than me and there is another bronze camper at 5-6k that beats me although he's only online occationally. This is a big reason why I really don't get some of the arguments thrown around by ppl in this thread. I mean sure a big crit campers could potentially beat a team with alot higher exp BUT they are so easy to counter with tai immunity and will be crushed by teams at 5-8k exp even if the crit camper is at Bunbuns lvls. As I said earlier tho I could buy the "fixing" of crit if other issues get's fixed in a big package of changes and some kind of equality is achieved between different campers.
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:45 PM   #55
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What you are talking about doing to balancing the entire game around the most under performing camp team (reroll). That is a nerf, not a "fix." Reroll has inherent diminishing returns, that is, by its own nature each % of reroll becames less and less important, that's simply probability. You can never make reroll teams hit for max every hit.

Trying to artificially force every other team to balance around that is frankly unreasonable. Make immunity have diminishing returns? How? you going to tell sparhawk that after the years he put into his team, suddenly his 100% nin immunity summons actually only stops around 50% or 60%, and now people that made attack teams 2 years after he started camping can crush him? You make both those changes, unless you made an attack camp teams, you wasted your time. As you said.. GeeGee
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:52 AM   #56
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Well it's not really new since the imm thread is 3 years old. So even with his 100+ imm he would still have over 63% if the diminishing returns from that thread are implemented. I'm not too sure how I feel about those diminishing returns as a standard for all diminishing returns because I think they might slow the game down too much. Unless stats were only nerfed for PvP because taking away the majority of a crit teams effectiveness on WM is rough but making it that a character with 200 CD doesn't have the same potential as a equally leveled ls nin character is completely unfair.

What if seal 1 was guaranteed to hit at least 1/4 or 1/3 of it's nin? From what I can tell 2 tai=1 attack at all seals and nin is the variable. 0-97.5% has a huge margin for error but 25 or 33-97.5% would put them in a position to better cover most crits.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:27 AM   #57
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also there is a big issue with ls nins) all they need to get max damage is 1 seal but for other builds results are seen only if you are playng for years. so it's only natural they are weakest of all. if i could get 100% immunity in 2 weeks i wont even bother playing any other build.
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:51 PM   #58
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Gurt, seriously, have you even read the tutorial about how the seal and stats work? FOr all I know it just sounds like you've really only been playing since february.

Sure you can roll high, but on average all you get from 1 seal is a ~12.7% damage increase, which is pretty much perfectly in line with LS crit.

Would the changes do anything to this default balance? Absolutely nothing! It would be rebalanced so all ninjas etc gets the same boosts from items and abilities etc on their own. However, when you stack them together it would get diminished returns, just like reroll does. Crit would still have its very own niche as a safer alternative to LS nin. And immunity on HS would still be the same, however. You wouldn't be able to become completely invincible like you can now.

Do you guys even listen to what you're saying? There is an issue. We know what's causing it. But you're just blaming that it's too late and just want to toss in some hobo patch rather than actually fixing it. It's not too late, it's been known for ages and everyone playing should already know that the system can change, especially if you find broken systems like immunity.

That's how every single game works. If you find a broken system, expect it to get fixed.


LS nin + reroll system is already working great. You take great risks but can get great returns. Reroll boosts the chances of it slightly.

Crit however has an awkward crit chance cap and crit damage that has the possibility of breaking the game. It's simply broken.

Immunity is really easy to stack up to game breaking levels (yes, really.) and simply needs a nerf.


LS vs HS on the other hand... HS is a lot better at everything really, except when you have infinite chances from prem so you can push for those extremely low chances of clearing. Endurance is a bit too high really.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:59 PM   #59
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I agree with Aeno. You could just make a new stat, let's say "Epic Failing". So if you have 10% Crit chance, them you'll have a 6% Epic Failing chance (60% or smth like that). If you have 50% Crit chance you'll have 30% Epic Failing Chance. Maybe it's to much 60% and it should be reduced I don't know. If you epic fail, then you'll have just the opposite of Crit Strike and your tai will be reduced with 25% (I think that this 25% should only change at every +60 crit dmg). I'm not so sure about this :-??

Also, Aeno, how powerfull was reroll at the beginning (before nerfing it) ?
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:39 PM   #60
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Think reroll was 30% and HS 25% nin immunity.. But SD had 8 reroll per level, which was quite extreme. LS tai was just plain useless and HS didn't have endurance nor any really good summons.. Best was katsuyu, and sometimes manda. Now HS got endurance and loads of awesome summons while LS nin just got shafted big time with no really special summons.. SD is still the best for it but barely matches the frog summons performance ;>

LS tai is as funky as always, but at least now it's useful in the default seal system, but after that it just gets weird...
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