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Old 08-28-2011, 02:16 AM   #1
Xelzy
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Default Gamahiro buff?

Let's take a quick look on the values for the "forbidden" summons.

Fukasaku - 5,25
Shima - 5,25
Gamaken - 5,5
Gamahiro - 3,75
Drill-Beaked Bird - 4,75

This the the "raw" attack value, and keep in mind that Gamahiro is affected by the crit chance cap, so if you have low seal taijutsu ninja, he has an attack value of 3 because you won't get anything out of the crit chance. Not to mention that there's loads of ninjas that has crit chance jutsus.

I think it's strange that the summon with the worst value also is the only one that has some kind of cap. The real question is, what needs a change?
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:31 AM   #2
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this is just a quick math but lets see really if those AV are acurrate to measure how ur attack will increase.

if u have tsunade FNK in lvl 70 and gamahiro in lvl 70 without items
u will have 721 tai 126 nin +gamahiro bonus wich are 210 tai 105 crit chance/dmg
so now his number will be 841 tai 126 nin , lets round crit dmg to 100% now u have 50 % chance to double your tai to 1682 , wich means u base attack will be 841 + what u get from nin
now lets se tsunade FNK in lvl 70 and gamaken in lvl 70 (cause in that list is the one with the most AV) again with no items
so 721 tai 126 nin , + 210 attack 175 end from gamaken
so this gives a base attack of 571 + what u get from nin

now both are HS
so a base attack of 571 against one of 841 who will win ??
but gamaken have more AV how can gamahiro give more boost than him ??
cause gamahiro is better for BA cause the endurance of gamaken makes him better for world map


AV just gives a general idea , dont take it like its 100% correct cause in different ninjas the numbers work different
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:53 AM   #3
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Tsunade fnk level 50 + level 20 Gamahiro (team 1)
Tsunade fnk level 50 + level 20 Fukasaku (team 2)

If both are lowseal, and have +40 stats and have bought 30 stats that woulde give us the following.

Team 1: 620 taijutsu. 50% crit chance with 55% Crit damage. With out ninujutsu, a Crit from tsunade would deal 341 extra taijutsu in damage, leaving her at 961 taijusu when criting.

Team 2: 750 Taijusu. 40 endurance with 50% crit chance. Her crit damage is 25%. Her Taijutsu with a crit would go up to 937 taijutsu.

You gain a whooping 24 taijutsu (value of 12) for the cost of 40 endurance (Value of 40).

Not to mention that you can have a decent hybrid team with Pa toad, and not with Gamahiro.

For the sake of argument, let's have Team 1 go highseal and team 2 go lowseal.

Team 1: 620 taijutsu. 60 endurance. 30% crit chance. 30% crit dmg.

you get 30% chance to deal 186 extra taijutsu.

team 2: 750 taijusu. 40 endurance. 50% crit chance. 25% crit dmg.

you get 50% chance to deal 187 extra taijutsu.


Keep in mind, these summons are pretty new, and many players choose ninjas like Kabuto, Itachi etc. They are useless with Gamahiro, while most of the other summons works way better for a hybrid team, for the same cost.

Last edited by Xelzy; 08-28-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 08-28-2011, 12:22 PM   #4
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But why the hell use Gamahiro with LS ninja?! Hi is made for HStai team.
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Old 08-28-2011, 12:28 PM   #5
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Yes he is, that the point.

How many players went full highseal taijusu team? Many player either choose 1-2 to lowseal ninjas with ninjutsu, and that makes him not at all as usefull. You need a team where every ninja has >50% taijutsu focus per ninja to make him even compare to the other summons.

The problem for him is that he came out of nowhere more or less and people had no time to plan a pure hs tai like they did with Ls nin.

to go back to the Tsunade comparing.

Team 1: 620 taijutsu. 60 endurance. 30% crit chance. 30% crit dmg.

when you crit, you get 806 taijusu. Is the 30% chance to deal 23 more damage worth 40 endurance?

team 2: 750 taijusu. 100 endurance.

Last edited by Xelzy; 08-28-2011 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 08-28-2011, 01:33 PM   #6
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doesnt matter , ur point was that he have to be buff cuase he has the lowest AV and i put to u a situation were i compare the one who has the higher AV (gamaken) against the one who has the lowest AV (gamahiro) and gamahiro won proving that AV is not a factor to decide if a summon is weak or powerfull

now lets see the other summon DBB against fuka

again tsunade , but now LS no items

lvl 50 + lvl 75 DBB

105 attack 804 tai 109 nin 100 % crit dmg 50 % crit chance
50 % chance of having 1608 tai + 105 attack = base attack of 909 + nin


lvl 50 + lvl 75 fuka

1029 tai 109 nin 25% crit dmg 50 % crit chance 150 endurance
50 % chance of having 1287 tai = base attack of 643 + nin

again the summon with lower AV wins against the one with more AV , the situation will be diferent if tsunade were HS.
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Last edited by Aenonar; 08-28-2011 at 02:52 PM. Reason: Don't double post... use the edit button.
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Old 08-28-2011, 02:54 PM   #7
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If anything, the frog summons should all be nerfed, definitely not buffed.


And yet again... AV is crap. Seriously, stop using it. The AV values weren't even written to compare summons, so not only is it wrong by itself, it's applied to the wrong thing. So just stop it.
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Old 08-28-2011, 05:02 PM   #8
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You can't use low level ninja and summons to compare the two. Gamahiro, DBB, and Hachibi all get exponentially better. Maybe Fukasaku is better at level 10, but crit summons destroy at high levels.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:06 PM   #9
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gamahiro is fine the way he is. just having crit is already a major power boost and the fact that he gives 1.5% to both crit and crit dmg per lvl is already an excellent boost. of course, you gotta have HS tai ninjas to make good use of it. if you want to go LS tai, just go for hachibi. he's pretty much just as good. i admit, i would the crit rate cap to be removed, but that would make HS tai FNs insanely powerful on higher difficulties.

like all the other 20 ck summons, the problem with gamahiro is that you get him very late in the game. it is far more effective in most cases to get a gold rank summon like gobi. the difference between gamahiro and the rest is that he needs a lot more lvls than the other summons to be effective since his bonus only activates on crits. in my opinion, at least level 20 so that you get crit 30% of the time. of course, with the right tai ninjas and LWs, it can turn a HS ninja into an absolute beast.

i wouldn't be surprised if my tsunade could hit something on the world map for 1k dmg right now with crit.

EDIT:
a lot of the "attack values" mean different things. on the world map, the 2 most important things are damage and stamina. this matters more than anything else until higher difficulties where endurance comes 3rd. simply adding endurance changed the nature of forbidden because it became extremely valuable in longer fights. on the world map, immunity is nearly pointless to have because stamina and attack matters more. dealing more dmg > reducing dmg taken. by measuring only attack values you miss a lot of things.

the best example of where attack values fail is kisame's 800 ability. when you measure by attack value, it is complete garbage compared to most abilities, but you forget that it has the 2 most important stats for world map. it adds damage and stamina. elemental advantage and resist? useless in most situations. decrease enemy attack? just adding damage is better. critical chance? only useful for HS ninjas.
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Last edited by tihoa; 08-28-2011 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:38 PM   #10
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i like my gamahiro the way he his ^^

though i wouldn't mind a buff to crit chance (i will take him to the required lvl no problem since i'm camping, but lvl33 summon on a progression setup? ok, it's designed for FM, but would be nice if he could be actually useful in other modes as well, like the other summons are :P I mean, he's the only summon that requires a certain lvl before giving his full bonus, he SHOULD be a little over powered to compensate for that :P)
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:42 PM   #11
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you're assuming that gamahiro needs to provide a full 50% to critical rate. this isn't really necessary. it is very nice to have, but not necessary. from what i've experienced so far, the critical damage is far more important. odds are you will finish forbidden mode around the time he gets to lvl 25. even then, he already has a whopping 37.5% chance and damage without considering any LWs. it isn't hard to achieve 50% crit considering all the crit chance LWs lying around on FM.
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:20 PM   #12
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i dont understand how drill-beaked bird is supposed to be weaker than grandpa toad
he gives you 1 extra atk per level and crit dmg is better than endurance
...... or am i missing something?
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #13
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You are missing the usefulness of endurance in High Difficulty progression setups which benefits both HS and LS which in turn allows yo to use hybrid teams and the best ninjas available. DBB forces you to use LS tai ninjas to take full advantage of his crit damage boost.
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