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Old 03-07-2013, 05:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Crusty is somewhat poor in comparison to gobi tbh, the 2% ryo gain doesn't do much until ~lvl 13+ at which gobi atm gives 13 attack to each ninja, which is quite a bit actually. It is 2 less halved chakra though which means you can get it earlier on impossible or use it with 2fng/2fnj/fnk on hard. But that doesn't really offset the damage loss. The ryo gain might be interesting on impossible, but not really enough to offset the damage loss since stats do cost *a lot*. Even considering the extra levels you'd need at least 2 rounds of stat to each ninja when the average is ~4 rounds default, so you're looking at around 72000 ryo needed to offset the damage loss.. Which just... no.... :P

It wouldn't do much about the general summon balancing to remove 0.5 from Gobi. And it really is the go-to summon for pretty much any mode until FM, which is kinda lame...
Ppl should learn to use Golden axe in which case Crusty gets useful alot earlier :) Mby the ryo gain should be increased to 3 or mby even 4 tho.

However one also have to keep in mind that on beginner the extra ryo can be used to buy fsps or even the 800s a bit earlier. These boosts are alot cheaper than buying stat points. Also Crusty is gotten quite abit earlier if one has elemental disadvantage towards Gobi.

Overall I'm against any kinds of nerfs regarding progression as it takes quite abit of time as it is now and there is no use in increasing it more :) Especially when we can buff other summons instead.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
The issue with crit damage is that it allows ninjas to roll outside of the normal attack range. HS can only roll 47.5-52.5% of their nin damage, low seal 2.5-97.5%. So once crit damage goes above 98%, the crit chance turns into plain win chance. Add in some immunities and anti-immunities and you've got something that is unstoppable.

2% needs lvl 50 to give 100% crit damage, or 37.5 as low seal.
3% needs a meager lvl 33/34 or even lvl 25 as low seal.

Highest hit on ladder is childs play. You have a massive 50% chance to hit beyond low seals wildest dreams while they have 0.1% chance (plus reroll) with a 0-1000 range (to make it simple)

Even 2% per level is quite insane really, at least on the high level summons which actually bring other useful stats as a bonus.

Guess how Teamish shredded my LS nin's max attack? Simple crit damage stacking. Not even a high level summon, added in a couple of +crit dmg LW's instead.

If crit damage has a cap, maybe. But that would just make summon balancing even weirder since then both of them would be capped. Diminishing returns would be great for it however.
I agree with you for everything except that I prefer a crit damage cap because:
  1. It's simple and easier to understand.
  2. It wouldn't affect progression teams as they are highly unlikely to reach the cap.
So basically I think we should consider adding some sort of restriction for crit damage before discussing buffing Hachibi and Gamahiro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drag0nf0rce View Post
Lesser Kyubi
Attack/EleAdv/Sta
From 2/3/5
To 4/3/5 OR 3/5/5 OR 5/2/2
(Keep in mind the huge C cost)
It seems that most people tend to neglect the element adv attribute of this summon. Giving this summon a large amount of attack would make it pretty boring IMO. I would rather see something like 3/4/5.
  • 3 Attack is fairly standard
  • 4 Elemental advantage is quite strong. At level 50 this is 200 elem adv, which should be enough to bring most ninja's resist down to zero. There are plenty of strong elemental adv LWs now, add those in and you can potentially do double damage or more. This could allow a genin to compete with a kage.
  • 5 Stamina seems about right. It allows misslotting which synergizes well with the elemental adv.
Keep in mind that a lot of the LWs suggested in the New LW's thread have reduce resist as an attribute. Plus the fact that it is a popular attribute in customs, makes the Lesser Kyuubi a very strong summon.

So instead of giving it a ton of attack and then simply having teams add immunity LWs to mindlessly steamroll their opponents, this version of the summon requires the player exploit the other team's elemental weakness and hence bring a new factor into the camping scene.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:39 PM   #23
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I really disagree with this crit cap discussion. Take two equally ridiculously lvld teams, one is ls nin with SD and one is ls tai with Hachibi. The ls nin team has such a high lvl that it behaves exactly like hs tai but with double damage and the crit team has 1000000000000000000000000000dmg on crit and blows everything into space once it crits. However when it doesn't crit it does regular Hs taiish damage and hence loses all non crit hits against the ls nin team. Hence this match up ends in a 50% chance for any team to win right?

However if the crit team has it's crit dmg capped it will never reach 100000000000000000000000 dmg and will be in a state were it looses some times even if it doesn't crit. How is this good for balance I wonder? This comparison can ofc be made with atk teams also who will beat crit teams 50% of the time as it is today simply because their summons are alot stronger when the crit teams doesn't crit. That their summons are stronger will also make the atk campers the strongest campers if crit is capped if we look at ridiculous teams. So what a cap would really do is to lower the crit teams winning chance from 50% and make the atk/immunity campers the strongest. Juubi campers would probably end out on top once they get enough lvls to beat down the immunity campers.

The hard part is ballancing it so that the crit teams doesn't win 50% of the time against a well built camper with higher lvls. That is really hard and mby we could use a cap in the form of a formula of some kind? The higher you are lvld the more crit dmg you are allowed to have or something like that.

I don't at all believe in a diminishing returns solution as we would just make the crit summons incredibly weak at high lvls.

Also think about that there are tons of Tai immunity lws that basically means a crit team needs a gazillion lvls on their summon to beat the other team as it is today. There are even teams with 100% tai immune that basically auto winns whatever the crit teams raw dmg is. A crit team can't deal with immunity just as little as ls nin can and that is the great weakness for them.

Also Gamahiro is pretty strong as he is and needs neither buff or nerf. It may be that the team has to be very tai specialized but it is still strong for the right team.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:53 PM   #24
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Crit is pretty messy to try to balance.. It's pretty decent balance on the default seal bonus, but after that it gets pretty weird...

Technically, LS tai vs HS whatever = 50/50 win rate.

However... If the LS tai has 100% crit damage and faces LS nin, LS tai has about 75% win chance.

Why? Because it has 50% chance to roll 100% damage while LS nin can only roll 97.5%. So it automatically wins 50% of the time. But if it doesn't crit it does 50% damage flat.

LS nin has an average of 50% damage, but because it's random it's a 50/50 chance that it will roll above or below 50%.

So.... Even if the LS tai team doesn't crit is still only has about a 50% chance to win since the good rolls aren't saved for when they're really needed. Reroll helps but it' takes quite a bit to get near 50/50 win rate
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
So.... Even if the LS tai team doesn't crit is still only has about a 50% chance to win since the good rolls aren't saved for when they're really needed. Reroll helps but it' takes quite a bit to get near 50/50 win rate
Y but I figured we're talking camping here and yes it takes quite a bit to get there but Spar is quite close to lvl 100 summon so that is what we have to consider imo. That'd mean 500% reroll from summon and whatever lws the ls nin team might have. So y I guess I agree and say that 50/50 will probably never be reached :)

The easy solution would be to lower the crit rate to 40-45% ish and up the raw dmg on crit summons slightly to give them a tinytinychance on non crit hits as well as buffing ls tai heavily for progression. However I think Udon can give some insight on the crit balance considering he's the only one with a high lvld atleast semi-optimized crit camper with full FN lineup. Atleast the only strong one I know of.

Btw sry for editing so much
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:21 PM   #26
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The way I see it right now in terms of the amount of risk a certain team takes and their potential for damage is:
  • HS teams - Low risk (stable damage) and Low damage (small damage attack range).
  • LS nin teams - High risk (can roll very low) and High damage (can roll very high, 97.5% of nin total).
  • Crit teams - Low to medium risk (depends on HS or LS) and insane damage (100%+ crit damage)
It's pretty obvious that there's no point to LS nin teams since crit teams can potentially hit harder without running the risk of failing against a significantly weaker team. Even with 500% reroll a LS nin team can still lose. Due to this fact, I think LS nin teams should be able to hit the hardest in the game, not crit teams.

You seem to be under the impression that any sort of restriction on crit damage would cripple crit teams in terms of camping and this is simply not true. As you pointed out, crit teams have a 50% chance to win against other teams of the same level. In most cases a cap on the crit damage would not affect this chance, it would only prevent that same 50% win chance applying on a team with much higher levels. For instance, a team with a level 100 Hachibi would have 225% crit damage. This could allow them to beat a team up to 3 times their level... which is horribly imbalanced. If a cap of say 90% crit damage was applied then they wouldn't be able to beat a significantly higher level team, but still have that same 50% chance against teams of their own level.

You also mentioned that crit teams are weak in progression. By applying some sort of restriction to crit damage, we can freely buff the crit summons without fear of crit campers becoming overpowered.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:10 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Superbun View Post
It's pretty obvious that there's no point to LS nin teams since crit teams can potentially hit harder without running the risk of failing against a significantly weaker team. Even with 500% reroll a LS nin team can still lose. Due to this fact, I think LS nin teams should be able to hit the hardest in the game, not crit teams.
Why should they be able to hit the hardest? The crit team need quite a bit of summon lvl to even start competing with the ls nin teams max hits. Imo opinion crit is usually the hardest hits in any game but it is balanced on its proc rate not the dmg. As both you and Aeonar are pointing out it could be balanced with a cap against ls nin, but only against ls nin. It'd be really hard to find this 50/50 lvl against atk campers, which summons are generally stronger in terms of raw dmg, as well as 50/50 vs ls nin.

Also you're once again forgetting about the inherent risks of crit teams which can easily loose to teams with 3-4 times less their lvls if they have nin-kame with decent lvls. This is already happening to my main on FM so I know this. The same comparision can also be made with ls nin and katsyu who basically killed ls nin campers as a genre. Crit teams could potentially overpower nin-kame campers with crit dmg as long as the nin-kame isn't close to lvl 100 so I guess this is also unfair to ls nin which can never overpower katsyu but that is hardly a reason for capping crit dmg :)

Here's a crazy idea for you guys: How about capping the summon lvl at 100? Since these are the kind of summon lvls we're discussing here anyway and it'd solve alot of problems generally regarding high lvl camping teams with immunity etc growing crazily strong. Also then and only then could we balance each camper type to have 50/50 chance against any other camper type. The one with the slowest growth rate/progression speed could get 51% win chance just because it is harder to get to the lvl cap.

This would also make camping alot more about utilizing different lws and such to beat the enemy which might even make the game more interessting in the end. Also the kages might actually have to be somewhat active to keep their position for this reason.

However introducing a lvl cap like that would requiere big modifications to -enemy immunity summons so that they do not cancel all immunity for an immunity team making it highly unfair.

I still say that balancing crit by reducing its proc rate would probably be the easiest solution making it a high risk high reward kind of team. Ofc crit teams would definately need some boosting progression wise maybe by adding some endurance gain to their summons I'm not really sure :) Mby even adding like 5 endurance in general to low seal ninjas could be a good idea since this would also nerf ls nin a timy bit.

Quote:
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As you pointed out, crit teams have a 50% chance to win against other teams of the same level. In most cases a cap on the crit damage would not affect this chance, it would only prevent that same 50% win chance applying on a team with much higher levels.
True, however you don't take into account that Hachibi will be a fairly weak summon once the cap is reached and all other campers will start to outgrow it. Trying to buff this problem away by giving it more tai/lvl would simply make it insane for lower lvls.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:31 PM   #28
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Remember this is a thread about Summon 'Boosting', not Type 'Nerfing'
We're talking about individual summons here not to change a whole type.

And to voice my iopnion on this, all of the types have some sort of advantages to them but Crit teams 'EVENTUALLY' get the most overpowering one, maybe some sort of high level cap would be a good idea.
But also for something that we don't hear alot, what about HS Nin teams, they've always been the worst type (IMO) what is the advantage to them?
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:27 PM   #29
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crit could use a complete restructuring to make it more like LS nin but for tai... Along with immunities getting diminishing returns as well... As crit is atm you can't really do much to it without screwing it up

You don't need a lvl 100 summon anyways for 100% crit damage, just base LS + minor summon + some LW and you've got easy 100 :>
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Old 03-09-2013, 04:40 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
crit could use a complete restructuring to make it more like LS nin but for tai... Along with immunities getting diminishing returns as well... As crit is atm you can't really do much to it without screwing it up

You don't need a lvl 100 summon anyways for 100% crit damage, just base LS + minor summon + some LW and you've got easy 100 :>
I agree mby a separate thread should be put up to throw around some ideas on that topic?

Dragonforce: Schichibi has +3 crit dmg in the new suggested form. Lower it to 2 :)
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:36 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seglarkungen View Post
I agree mby a separate thread should be put up to throw around some ideas on that topic?
We'll need to wait for Udon's okay first, otherwise it would be pointless if he isn't willing to change it.

Anyway getting back on topic, I think the following may need a buff:
Manda
Attack/ResDown/StamDown
From 4/2/2
To 4/1/1

Since Lesser Kyuubi may get an elemental adv buff, this would be a serious disadvantage for Manda teams. Plus it kind of looks weak when compared to DBB.

Shinigami

EnemyAtk Down/Lvl5 Death
From 2.5/5
To 3.5/5
There have been quite a few level 5 death LWs added so this summon is kind of obsolete now. It also costs 40 Chakra.

Since Udon has asked us to discuss and agree on the stats, should we start finalizing each summon one at a time?
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Old 03-10-2013, 01:30 AM   #32
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The balance for old summons seems to have aroused more attention than that for new ninjas and summons so I am afraid we need to poll again.

To make polling easier, here are the suggested buff:

Ryo Bird
4% or 4.5% or 5% or 6%

Umibouzu (It won't get a Chakra increase)
4/4 or 4/5

Pakkun
6%

Ichibi
3/4 or

Sanbi
2.5/4 or 3/4 or 3.5/4 or add 0.5/1 CritDmg or rework to 1Tai/1End/2CritDmg

Gamabunta
5/5 or 6/4 or 6/5 or 6.5/6 or 7/4 or 8/4

Manda
4/1/1

Rokubi
6/3/6

Shichibi
3/3/3

Hachibi
5/2 or 4/3

Gamahiro
3/1.5/2

Shinigami
3.5/5

Lesser Kyuubi
4/3/5 or 3/5/5 or 5/5/5 or 3/4/5

So, discuss more?
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anson View Post
The balance for old summons seems to have aroused more attention than that for new ninjas and summons so I am afraid we need to poll again.

To make polling easier, here are the suggested buff:

Ryo Bird
4% or 4.5% or 5% or 6%

Umibouzu (It won't get a Chakra increase)
4/4 or 4/5

Pakkun
6%

Ichibi
3/4 or

Sanbi
2.5/4 or 3/4 or 3.5/4 or add 0.5/1 CritDmg or rework to 1Tai/1End/2CritDmg

Gamabunta
5/5 or 6/4 or 6/5 or 6.5/6 or 7/4 or 8/4

Manda
4/1/1

Rokubi
6/3/6

Shichibi
3/3/3

Hachibi
5/2 or 4/3

Gamahiro
3/1.5/2

Shinigami
3.5/5

Lesser Kyuubi
4/3/5 or 3/5/5 or 5/5/5 or 3/4/5

So, discuss more?
I guess I'll give my opinions starting at the top:

Ryo bird 5% cause it will reach the "magicall" +25% and greatly increase its returns 1 lvl earlier.

Umibouzo 4/4 I've actually seen a 5k team beat an 8kish team with that summon. So I dunno if it's power should be increased by alot. This seems fair.

Pakkun 6% It needs to be separated some more fron Giant dogs than it is atm so this seems like a good lvl.

Ichibi 2/4 No +3crit dmg or we'll make it beat Hachibi for crit campers

Sanbi 2.5/4/1 To increase its power a bit and make it a summon suited for ls tai

Gamabunta 6/4 The other suggestions are just too good for the chakra


Manda 5/2/2 is my suggestion to separate it from the new atk summons but keeping its old flaws.

Rokubi 6/3/6 Sure why not

Shishibi 3/2/3 No +3 crit dmg here either. If one wants to buff it further increase the endurance.

Hachibi No need to buff it imo. It just gets crazy in camping.

Gamahiro 4/1.5/1.5 I'd rather see the tai gain increased than the crit dmg or it'll just be a Hachibi with critchance which could potentially be unballanced since Hs tai won't need crit lws.

Shinigami 3.5/5 sure why not

Lesser Kyubi 3/3/5 I think ppl are underestimating the elemental advantage and the potential uses of the stamina. For example the stamina would protect a full fnk camper against all the potential stamina reduction campers. Hence I think this summon shouldn't give more atk than juubi since it is also availiable to red fox campers.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:44 PM   #34
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right i've bold(ed?) the stats that seem either most popular or most acceptable, although theres nothing on hachibi yet, i personally think he could use a boost, even if its adding a new stat
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:22 PM   #35
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One could give him 1-2 nin too not mess up the crit ballance but still aid him in progression? It shouldn't have an impact on the crit vs bronze camper situation either. Or any other stat than crit chance, crit dmg or tai rly. At least that is imo :)
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:20 PM   #36
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Is there a way to get numbers on teams that have active summons of accounts that been active only in the past 2 months? To get an idea of real summon usage? Therefore, we can determine which summons are being under utilized.

Post water country summon "Recruited by 10112 teams, active in 9235." but many of those accounts are probably inactive

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Old 04-04-2013, 05:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anson View Post
The balance for old summons seems to have aroused more attention than that for new ninjas and summons so I am afraid we need to poll again.

To make polling easier, here are the suggested buff:

Ryo Bird
4% or4.5% or 5% or 6%

Mitoru: So it takes effect from lvl 5

Umibouzu (It won't get a Chakra increase)
4/4 or 4/5

Mitoru: Sounds Good.

Pakkun
6%

Mitoru: Same.

Ichibi
3/4 or

Mitoru: 3/4 is good, anything more makes it imba.

Sanbi
2.5/4 or 3/4 or 3.5/4 or add 0.5/1 CritDmg or rework to 1Tai/1End/2CritDmg

Mitoru: I would like that actually.

Gamabunta
5/5 or 6/4 or 6/5 or 6.5/6 or 7/4 or 8/4

Mitoru: 3 attack isn't bad, elemental damage as bonus.

Manda
4/1/1

Mitoru: Nothing to add.

Rokubi
6/3/6

Mitoru: Might work.

Shichibi
3/3/3

Mitoru: 3/2/3 would sound resonable.

Hachibi
5/2 or 4/3

Mitoru: Nothing to add.

Gamahiro
3/1.5/2

Mitoru: Looks good, not much but makes it slightly better. Tbh this summon doesn't need a boost at all.

Shinigami
3.5/5

Mitoru: This is a dead camping summon anyway, but -3,5 attack sounds good.

Lesser Kyuubi
4/3/5 or 3/5/5 or 5/5/5 or 3/4/5

Mitoru: Let's not go too far with boosting.

So, discuss more?
Mitoru: Sure bro, whatever.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:02 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Crit is pretty messy to try to balance.. It's pretty decent balance on the default seal bonus, but after that it gets pretty weird...

Technically, LS tai vs HS whatever = 50/50 win rate.

However... If the LS tai has 100% crit damage and faces LS nin, LS tai has about 75% win chance.

Why? Because it has 50% chance to roll 100% damage while LS nin can only roll 97.5%. So it automatically wins 50% of the time. But if it doesn't crit it does 50% damage flat.

LS nin has an average of 50% damage, but because it's random it's a 50/50 chance that it will roll above or below 50%.

So.... Even if the LS tai team doesn't crit is still only has about a 50% chance to win since the good rolls aren't saved for when they're really needed. Reroll helps but it' takes quite a bit to get near 50/50 win rate
You're ignoring 40% chance to reroll base + Reroll Summons and LW

for LS Tai and LS Nin
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:46 AM   #39
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no, he didn't ignore it. he just said that in general for LS nin, it's either you get a high hit or a low hit that's why it's 50/50. and reroll does not affect crit chance, it's still 50% CC according to them.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:55 AM   #40
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Reroll doesn't make LS nin roll over 97.5%, so no matter how much reroll you have you will never beat crit with 100% crit damage. The only thing reroll would help is for the non-crits where you still only have ~50% chance to win. 100% reroll would boost it to about 66.5% chance, but that's still only 66.5% of 50%, as in 33.25% overall win rate.
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