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Old 04-08-2013, 03:39 PM   #21
Superbun
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Originally Posted by Bloodysky View Post
So... the plan is the nerf a team that has zero ability to combat immunity before we address immunity teams? Seems like you should balance immunity and see where that leaves crit/re-roll teams before you adjust them. Generally speaking when you are dealing with game balance, you either go from top down, or bottom up (i.e. you either boost the most under performing teams (re-roll), or nerf the most dominating (immunity), you generally don't start off by nerfing the second or third best team comp. Jus' saying
Pretty much everyone wants an immunity nerf, which would likely lead to it being severely nerfed. As I said earlier this would then leave crit without any sort of counter, so the only balancing option would be to severely nerf crit damage. I'm pretty sure none of you would like a crit damage cap of 50% for instance. Hence the reason why I decided to discuss a crit nerf first.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #22
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Personally, I've always been in the camp of boost over nerf. If you feel something is too strong, then boost the rest, rather than nerf the strong there are always less hard feelings. It seems like the issue is how crit teams stack up against re-roll teams, so lets look at ways to increase the effectiveness of re-roll rather than crush crit teams, because in NM it takes so long to build up the team comp you want for your final team, its really really harsh to tell everyone that has spent a year or two getting ready for a crit camp team "well, sorry, but now we are going to gut the entire team comp, should have picked a different one."

Alternatively, like I suggested previously, if a cap is put in place (and it needs to be higher than 50%), then all the crit summons need fairly substantial tai boosts or they will be nothing on par with 16/20 chakra (pre half) summon growth once the cap is reached and cirt teams are the only team that has to deal with this already with crit chance, to do the same to crit dmg is just too much without boosts.

Possible ways to address re-roll vs. crit is to raise the min-roll, give them some sort of partial crit immunity, make the built in (seal 1) crit dmg apply to nin as well as tai, but summon and LWs only boost tai. Just some ideas
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #23
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How about give ls ninjas 10% tai immunity? Or both immunities? Endurance for hs ninjas is a big advantage allready. Too bad it'd profit critical teams too except hs crit. Or maybe some extra effect for reroll>100? I have no ideas what but something might work.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:29 PM   #24
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Well the only reason I can see to nerf crit first would be if immunity didn't block the tai used to make the crit but that would require restructuring the order attack is calculated. A high min-low max isn't as appealing as low min-high max for camping considering ls nin doesn't need to stack reroll to hit high, just to be consistent.

Attack teams are getting left behind because it's even harder for a hybrid to deal with immunity, ls nin and crit teams. on the other side of that coin, that is what making an attack hybrid is about. A jack-of-all-trades type of team isn't specializing in 1 thing, so they shouldn't be surprised when a specialist team is made correctly.

A 50% cap is low, even at 75% the max damage is less than what an equally leveled nin user can hit. A cap of 50 also punishes progressors a lot and all the people who have Exodus. Diminishing returns starting at 50% for both cd and imm may work but then anti imm summons will be the problem and ls nin teams will gain a huge advantage in max attack.

It's a matter of consistency vs capacity for campers. ls nin and tai aren't very consistent, nin being less consistent but has a much higher capacity. Immunity teams are very consistent at lowering the other teams capacity. Attack teams are consistent with a medium to high capacity to avoids immunity and should be full of specialists to counter the other 5 types(anti-imms are self explanatory). So only having diminishing returns on 2 of the 6 types is wrong.

The seal system would need to be reworked to tighten the min-max on nin and anti-imms would need diminishing returns as well, which should balance out attack teams in the long run unless nerfing everything but attack gives them too much of a boost. Although I think all these changes make progression teams suffer the most.
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:13 PM   #25
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I have an idea.

How about making CCvalue depend on WM or BA just like enemy stamina down.

There will be no chance cap on WM and half of that at BA( with cap 33%)
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalo View Post
I have an idea.

How about making CCvalue depend on WM or BA just like enemy stamina down.

There will be no chance cap on WM and half of that at BA( with cap 33%)
Such a dmg cap wouldn't be fair to those of us who have spent a long time gathering ninjas to build the ultimate dmg camper. I think getting a cap right is impossible. Among other problems is the summon ballancing with the cap, how do you make the crit summons good in camping but still not overpowered in progression? Once the summon reaches the cap it'd likely be mediocre at best.

I still say balance it by lowering the crit chance slightly if it is really that important. Diminishing returns could possibly work if it is introduced for immunity as well.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:22 PM   #27
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While we're at it let's suggest an immunity cap thread.

Oh wait...

Also why are ppl bringing up the "first CD then immunity" while immunity needed to be fixed AGES (litterally) before crit even got introduced.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:09 PM   #28
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i know it's old thread, but i got suggestion: add lws with - enemy crit chance it's only natural to do and will balance out crit teams just like +-immunities
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:28 PM   #29
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Its not lws that balance the game. I thought you were suggesting to have -enemy immunities for ls team which is imba
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:36 PM   #30
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with 50%crit chance at max lws will balance it, and -crit chance(damage) summons can always be made. for example if spirit dragon will get -0,3(-0,5) enemy crit chance then ls nin builds will get a lot of edge against crit builds and at same time it won't make them any stronger against other camper types (main comparison was crit versus ls nins)
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:45 PM   #31
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Lws are for 1 ninja use only unless they make lws that have similar stats and needs hunting while crit is inherent to ls and minus enemy crit chance would be weird
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:04 PM   #32
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give us you ideas then. it always easier to reject than to suggest and Sparhawk - I - got his immunity with lws too so they are important in good build just as summon and ninjas, so stop trolling and start adding YOUR ideas.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:31 PM   #33
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Well you do have a point about lws but no enemy crit chance reduction in nm. my ideawhich you can disregard
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:46 PM   #34
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and why it's a no to -crit chance? nm already have all other "minuses" (like - enemy immunity,- enemy stamina and so on) adding -crit is only natural. and about your idea: only minus i see is that tai in nm is a not a variable base of damage. for that you have nin and adding to crit something like random(1;critdamage*nin) is much more apropriate
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:39 PM   #35
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Why not something similar to -Crit chance. Maybe give it a whole new name and working

Disable - Gives a chance of reducing Enemys Tai-Attack at that certain attack.


Kinda works like the -enemy Tai, but i suppose would add more of a penalty ontop of that making it more useful?
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:43 PM   #36
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Gurt we are not really focusing on minus but my formula makes crit damage random not always 25 cd

Isnt that Like minus enemy attack?
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Old 05-14-2013, 03:18 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drag0nf0rce View Post
Why not something similar to -Crit chance. Maybe give it a whole new name and working

Disable - Gives a chance of reducing Enemys Tai-Attack at that certain attack.


Kinda works like the -enemy Tai, but i suppose would add more of a penalty ontop of that making it more useful?
Its not a bad idea really.. And might finally give some use to the crit chance summons since the extra crit chance you currently get over 50% becomes completely worthless.

I still think giving LS nin ninjas some innate boost against crit is the best way to do this. Maybe just giving LS ninjas some innate -crit chance/dmg as part of the re-roll stat and maybe only starting when a ninja reaches 50 re-roll or something, or putting the stat directly on existing re-roll summons? From what I understand from this thread (and others) the real issue is that re-roll teams have trouble competing with crit.

Immunity certainly has no problem dealing with crit teams, and crit/re-roll teams should be dominating the straight attack teams, so the problem is just how crit teams match up against re-roll, and that should be addressed without giving immunity or attack teams access to the ability to lessen crit effectiveness, because from what I've seen, crit matches up about right against immunity and attack teams.
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:22 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drag0nf0rce View Post
Why not something similar to -Crit chance. Maybe give it a whole new name and working

Disable - Gives a chance of reducing Enemys Tai-Attack at that certain attack.


Kinda works like the -enemy Tai, but i suppose would add more of a penalty ontop of that making it more useful?
Or you just... you know.. Get tai immunity ;o

-enemy immunity is a bad "fix" really.. Don't need more of those...
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:56 PM   #39
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i don't think - immunity is a bad fix. it's just immunity don't equal -immunity at general.immunity usefull against all teams and -immunity only against immunity. adding -crit to ls nin specific summons will give what you wanted (upper hand to ls nins against crit teams) and at same time wont be any nerf, (+it's a minor boost to summon) something like universal solution on many problems at once.
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Old 05-14-2013, 03:11 PM   #40
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-immunity just wastes stats on items/ninjas/summons when the enemy doesn't have any immunity to remove, hence it's just garbage in those situations. -crit etc is just as must waste of stats
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