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Old 07-17-2013, 03:04 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BestTeamEverBg View Post
And your point is..? Everybody can end up in top 50 with enough challenges. People like using taka trio BECAUSE of their opness. (that doesn't really include main server.. they ain't op there.) Take that away and almost nobody is gonna use them. Having that said, people will have to bother coming up with teams for beginner/easy/medium events. (that would be too annoying imo.) anson, you complain about how OP they are, and yet, you have used them on the previous event. Wanna share why? I wanna see something. Nerf the shit out of them if you'd like but I want YOU to use them on the next event. (considering they get nerfed before the next event). Do that, beat the event (I think the next event should be an "easy" one, right..?) and I will be more than willing to accept those nerfs. Even tho, you will be getting free ryo and a lot more time to actually clear the game. Since usually an easy run takes around a month. (Now it will probably take more due to the low amount of challanges in the early stages of the game because of the lack of players.)
As I said, event is a good way to compare how fast different builds can clear a mode as they start around the same time. If they are op in event, it implies that they are much superior to other options on main server, unless you can prove that the extra energy and ryo can help the trio but not the other builds.

Also, I am not complaining. I read Seg's and kuuya's opinions that Taka Trio is op compared with other available builds and agree with their arguments. This is why I have decided to permit the discussion for it here. I hope you can stop imagining every people who support the nerf got bad intent. We are merely stating our opinions according to our observations and calculations, not emotions.
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:24 AM   #42
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@JmcXenon: Because some ppl may have choosen to get the FNJ because suigetsus 400+800 are among the strongest in the game. Also we aren't complaining about Suigetsu, we've just come to the conclusion that it could be a good way to nerf the overall effectiveness of the trio by reducing his stamina at beginner clearing lvls so that he can not carry a dmg lw/item with 100 stamina.

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Originally Posted by kuuya03 View Post
@seg, it's not really that harsh since juugo can still be misslotted and can still tank 4th hit from kyuubi at easy. and it was just an example :) will agree to 25 stam, 10 crit chance ;)
Imo he needs to be able to tank Kyubi at beginner lvls and on my event team I don't thinlk he had 100% tankability at lvl 20. Therefore I am against a huge nerf to the stamina combo because they would become unusable for beginner. They might still do decent on easy as you said but to me trio should work on beginner and easy atleast. Hence I think nerfing suigetsu is good. It will force trio teams to use 1-2 fsps on the trio leaving 1-2 availiable for kage and genins so that someone will lack in stamina.

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Originally Posted by BestTeamEverBg View Post
People like using taka trio BECAUSE of their opness...... people will have to bother coming up with teams for beginner/easy/medium events.
You win a prize for worst argument ever! You agree that they are OP but since it means you'll have to come up woth new strats you disagree. I rest my case xD
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:41 AM   #43
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Let's list juugo stam's source

10 hawk mem 1
20 hawk 2(karin juugo combo buff)
25 stam at lvl 20
45 400 skill
10 800
30 hawk trio(proposed)
40 fsp

Ave attack at lvl 20
Juugo misslotted (41+98)*(180/200)= 125
Suigetsu 25 +94 +20 =139
Kar (15+20+35)/2+81 =136
Lee 350 (32+42)/2+90=127 but his stam is at 94

So, in effect suigetsu need at least sp as 3rd item since taka trio gives 30 stam
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by kuuya03 View Post
Let's list juugo stam's source

10 hawk mem 1
20 hawk 2(karin juugo combo buff)
25 stam at lvl 20
45 400 skill
10 800
30 hawk trio(proposed)
40 fsp

Ave attack at lvl 20
Juugo misslotted (41+98)*(180/200)= 125
Suigetsu 25 +94 +20 =139
Kar (15+20+35)/2+81 =136
Lee 350 (32+42)/2+90=127 but his stam is at 94

So, in effect suigetsu need at least sp as 3rd item since taka trio gives 30 stam
But then if the proposed sta is 30, his early game (let say level 8) stam will be:
18.5 base
10 combo with Suigetsu (consider nerfing it as well lol)
20 combo with Karin (proposed)
30 hawk combo (proposed)
30 from 200
Over 100 already, which makes early game missloting penalty insignificant.
Besides, some just love to misslot Karin at that early stage so we have an Akatsuki-level attack Jounin with 100 stamina and some build-in Endurance from being HS.

Maybe we should nerf Juugo in stamina individually lol
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Seglarkungen View Post
You win a prize for worst argument ever! You agree that they are OP but since it means you'll have to come up woth new strats you disagree. I rest my case xD
I said that because they will get nerfed and not be just as good as before..?

Edit: And like I said 2 post ago, do whatever you want, I just hope people will continue to use them.
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Old 07-17-2013, 02:31 PM   #46
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they are still good at beginner if taka trio combo is reworked to 25 stam 10% exp gain and reworking hawk member 2 combo (karin juugo) to +7 tai, +20 stam, +6 earth damage. attached is kyuubi basher file for beginner. using proposed rework on anson's event team, the percent still 10% which is alot for beginner
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:45 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuuya03 View Post
Let's list juugo stam's source

10 hawk mem 1
20 hawk 2(karin juugo combo buff)
25 stam at lvl 20
45 400 skill
10 800
30 hawk trio(proposed)
40 fsp

Ave attack at lvl 20
Juugo misslotted (41+98)*(180/200)= 125
Suigetsu 25 +94 +20 =139
Kar (15+20+35)/2+81 =136
Lee 350 (32+42)/2+90=127 but his stam is at 94

So, in effect suigetsu need at least sp as 3rd item since taka trio gives 30 stam
I am fairly sure Juugo can't tank with that avg atk. Which makes that huge nerf too large. I still think limiting Suigetsus dmg is the best idea. Hurting Juugos early game would be cute and all but it can't really be done without destroying the end game for the trio as a whole I think. Maybe the Hawk Members 1 and 2 combo could be reworked togther with -5-10 stamina on the big stamina combo? Say if the +10 stamina from first combo got moved to second and the earth dmg to the first. Suigetsu would get lower stamina and Karin would get a bit moore (which is totally redundant on beginner).
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:53 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Seglarkungen View Post
I am fairly sure Juugo can't tank with that avg atk. Which makes that huge nerf too large. I still think limiting Suigetsus dmg is the best idea. Hurting Juugos early game would be cute and all but it can't really be done without destroying the end game for the trio as a whole I think. Maybe the Hawk Members 1 and 2 combo could be reworked togther with -5-10 stamina on the big stamina combo? Say if the +10 stamina from first combo got moved to second and the earth dmg to the first. Suigetsu would get lower stamina and Karin would get a bit moore (which is totally redundant on beginner).
We have talked about your concern with Bun (who discovered that even with 25 less stamina, Juugo's tanking ability is not below that of an FNG) on chat and we found that even with a heavy stamina nerf to the combo, early game Juugo is still insanely strong like Pakura. So we have decided to change the way the trio plays a bit by weakening their relative endgame capabilities (compared with Akatsuki Jounins at the same level) so that the trio needs more levels than the Akatsuki Jounins to have similar chance, which is fair considering the lower cost, earlier availability, quick early game progression and decent abilities they got. To make leveling easier, Exp Gain bonus will be offered in the combo.
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:49 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by anson View Post
We have talked about your concern with Bun (who discovered that even with 25 less stamina, Juugo's tanking ability is not below that of an FNG) on chat and we found that even with a heavy stamina nerf to the combo, early game Juugo is still insanely strong like Pakura. So we have decided to change the way the trio plays a bit by weakening their relative endgame capabilities (compared with Akatsuki Jounins at the same level) so that the trio needs more levels than the Akatsuki Jounins to have similar chance, which is fair considering the lower cost, earlier availability, quick early game progression and decent abilities they got. To make leveling easier, Exp Gain bonus will be offered in the combo.
For easy one FNG does not have extra stats and due to the low levels it is a rather bad tank on that mode. So the comparision to FNG might not be the best in all cases as a regular genin often does just as good or better. Besides by limiting Juugos early game power the whole purpose of strong early game and not as good in kyubi fight is lost to the trio. I have never considered their early game to be overpowered just powerfull by design. However it gets OP when their late game is better on beginner and easy and just as good on medium compared with other availiable teamtypes.

Besides isn't Juugos early game power somewhat mediated by Karin not being too powerful before she gets some levels. In early game she's mostly good because of the ryo gain she provides.

Another thing to consider before doing a huge nerf is how much better hawk trio actually is? They beat kyubi a few lvls earlier than others on beginner and easy but it is not that many lvls to validate halving the stamina bonus imo.
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Old 07-18-2013, 04:28 PM   #50
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What exactly are the proposed nerfs? Because the ones suggested by Kuuya seem pretty good on beginner, at least on my event team. In terms of clear chance they ended up more or less like a standard Akatsuki based team at the same levels. Since they have a ryo and an early game advantage they should still be slightly better on beginner.
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Originally Posted by kuuya03 View Post
they are still good at beginner if taka trio combo is reworked to 25 stam 10% exp gain and reworking hawk member 2 combo (karin juugo) to +7 tai, +20 stam, +6 earth damage. attached is kyuubi basher file for beginner. using proposed rework on anson's event team, the percent still 10% which is alot for beginner
So Juugo and Karin end up with 5 stamina less but get 10% exp gain... Only Suigetsu has taken a serious hit out of the three.

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Originally Posted by Seglarkungen View Post
Another thing to consider before doing a huge nerf is how much better hawk trio actually is? They beat kyubi a few lvls earlier than others on beginner and easy but it is not that many lvls to validate halving the stamina bonus imo.
A few levels on beginner and easy is huge. Just add a few levels on your own team and see how much the clear chance jumps :)
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Old 07-18-2013, 05:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Superbun View Post
A few levels on beginner and easy is huge. Just add a few levels on your own team and see how much the clear chance jumps :)
That is true but lvls also comes fairly fast :)

Btw I might have missed Kuyas suggestion to rework Hawk member 2 long with the stamina nerf on the "main combo". Been working alot and have been tiered so missed that one. I think it looks like a good way to do it but do not make it to strong or Juugo and Karin will become a duo leaving Suigetsu out of the game :)
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:37 AM   #52
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As a small conclusion, the important aspects for the Taka Nerf are:
-Reduce Suigetsu's endgame stamina so that he needs to use an FSP instead of a Robust
-Reduce Juugo's early game stamina as he got Akatsuki-tier attack with almost-100 stamina
-Ensure Juugo's endgame capability of tanking the 4th/8th hit at the appropriate levels
-Maintain a power balance between Taka Trio and traditional Akatsuki Tier Duo for Beginner, Easy and Medium (Taka should need more levels than Akatsuki to beat the game due to earlier availability and lower cost)

We have also come up with various solutions so far, below are 2 main ones:
-Nerf the stamina bonus in trio combo and provide another attribute as compensation
-Nerf the stamina bonus in trio combo while buffing the stamina bonus in Hawk 2(Karin+Juugo) so that only Suigetsu will receive a severe stamina reduction

After more discussion on chat, we got a third solution to address most, if not all, of the aspects above:
-Nerf the stamina bonus in trio combo to something like 20/25 (or go with a softer nerf and remove the stamina bonus in Hawk 1 instead) and provide 10% Exp Gain; Boost Juugo's stamina growth from 0.5 to 0.8 while nerfing his resistance growth from 0.3 to 0.1 (may need nerf on other attributes like base stamina, base attack and attack growth as well).

EDIT: To attract discussion, heres a real proposal:
Nerf Strange Trio bonus from 50 stamina to 20 stamina AND 10% Exp Gain
Boost Juugo's stamina growth from 0.5 to 0.8
Nerf Juugo's resist growth from 0.3 to 0.1
Nerf Juugo's base stamina from 15 to 10

Big thanks to kuuya, who trialed it with basher. By adding 2 more levels (to reflect the 10% exp bonus), the clearing chance actually ends up higher than the current version! It could be a buff for you if you make good use of the exp bonus.

Last edited by anson; 07-23-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:10 AM   #53
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if not higher, just the same clear chance. with 25% exp gain on karin suigetsu (10 +hawk member 1 combo)and 10% on juugo, it would be a buff. suigetsu can still use RN as 3rd item but using SP will merit 1% higher chance.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:27 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by anson View Post
As a small conclusion, the important aspects for the Taka Nerf are:
-Reduce Suigetsu's endgame stamina so that he needs to use an FSP instead of a Robust
-Reduce Juugo's early game stamina as he got Akatsuki-tier attack with almost-100 stamina
-Ensure Juugo's endgame capability of tanking the 4th/8th hit at the appropriate levels
-Maintain a power balance between Taka Trio and traditional Akatsuki Tier Duo for Beginner, Easy and Medium (Taka should need more levels than Akatsuki to beat the game due to earlier availability and lower cost)

We have also come up with various solutions so far, below are 2 main ones:
-Nerf the stamina bonus in trio combo and provide another attribute as compensation
-Nerf the stamina bonus in trio combo while buffing the stamina bonus in Hawk 2(Karin+Juugo) so that only Suigetsu will receive a severe stamina reduction

After more discussion on chat, we got a third solution to address most, if not all, of the aspects above:
-Nerf the stamina bonus in trio combo to something like 20/25 (or go with a softer nerf and remove the stamina bonus in Hawk 1 instead) and provide 10% Exp Gain; Boost Juugo's stamina growth from 0.5 to 0.8 while nerfing his resistance growth from 0.3 to 0.1 (may need nerf on other attributes like base stamina, base attack and attack growth as well).

EDIT: To attract discussion, heres a real proposal:
Nerf Strange Trio bonus from 50 stamina to 20 stamina AND 10% Exp Gain
Boost Juugo's stamina growth from 0.5 to 0.8
Nerf Juugo's resist growth from 0.3 to 0.1
Nerf Juugo's base stamina from 15 to 10

Big thanks to kuuya, who trialed it with basher. By adding 2 more levels (to reflect the 10% exp bonus), the clearing chance actually ends up higher than the current version! It could be a buff for you if you make good use of the exp bonus.
If you reduce Juugo's base stamina from 15 to 10 and increase stamina growth by .3 he wont gain stamina from his old stats until level 17, at which point he starts gaining more stamina. If you reduce the Strange Trio bonus stamina by 30 he needs an additional 10 levels to reach his old stamina, which requires level 27 to match his old stats.


So, your suggestion would put him at 27*0.8 = 21.6 Stamina without items or combos. 21.6 + 20 from the new Combo bonus = 41.6 He gains +10 Stamina if Suigetsu is in team from Hawk Combo 1 putting him up to 51.6

Misslotting penalty is 100 Stamina putting him at -48.4 Stamina (effective WM)
30 Stamina from his 200 ability + 45(effective WM stamina) gives him 26.6 Stamina... even with a Fresh Soldier Pill in the 3rd ability slot he is now at 66.6 Effective stamina if misslotted. This can be raised to 76.6 If you add Kimimaro CS2 (which would give you 4 Jounin in your team and another misslotted ninja)

66.6 Stamina and he cannot use his 800 ability does not sound viable. (Even at level 27 for beginner clear... which is pretty ridiculous in and of itself)

I'm not really sure what your goal is for rebalancing the Hawk Trio. Do you want to make it so they need higher levels to clear Beginner? Beginner event teams use Hawk trio because Juugo Suigetsu Karin is cheaper(Ryo) than any combination of Akatsuki Jounin and Kage (saving several days up to a week of Ryo farming).

In order for the combo to even be playable 1 of the jounin (usually Juugo) needs to be able to hit ~200 Stamina without requiring (potential) weeks of farming Stamina LWs. Leave their Stamina alone. What is the point of forcing FSP onto Suigetsu? There is a maximum of 3 FSP (and 3 RN) per team and at beginner clear levels without LW with your changes that makes clearing the game limited to VERY few options for your other 3 ninjas (only 1 can get a FSP if you require Juugo and Suigetsu to equip 1).

If the goal is to increase the time it takes Hawk Trio to clear Beginner I think it would be best to simply decrease their damage stat growth. (by .3 means at level 20 is 6 damage less per ninja which is a little more of a nerf than an extra round of stat points to buy or 2 Gobi levels). At level 30 it's 9 damage less (Easy Clear with increased levels penalty for running Taka).

If you think that is too drastic, decreasing damage growth by .2 and reducing their base stats by 2-4 points (1 or 2 attack) would affect their early levels more and later levels less.

Decreasing base stats = weaker early levels with a less significant (% of overall damage) impact on higher levels
Decreasing stat growth = minimal/negligible effect on early levels, becomes multiplicatively more significant at higher levels.

Is the goal to make Hawk trio a beginner-only team or is it to make them less viable on beginner(event)? We're essentially dictating the level required to clear the game by doing this.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:41 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bacchikoi View Post
If you reduce Juugo's base stamina from 15 to 10 and increase stamina growth by .3 he wont gain stamina from his old stats until level 17, at which point he starts gaining more stamina. If you reduce the Strange Trio bonus stamina by 30 he needs an additional 10 levels to reach his old stamina, which requires level 27 to match his old stats.


So, your suggestion would put him at 27*0.8 = 21.6 Stamina without items or combos. 21.6 + 20 from the new Combo bonus = 41.6 He gains +10 Stamina if Suigetsu is in team from Hawk Combo 1 putting him up to 51.6

Misslotting penalty is 100 Stamina putting him at -48.4 Stamina (effective WM)
30 Stamina from his 200 ability + 45(effective WM stamina) gives him 26.6 Stamina... even with a Fresh Soldier Pill in the 3rd ability slot he is now at 66.6 Effective stamina if misslotted. This can be raised to 76.6 If you add Kimimaro CS2 (which would give you 4 Jounin in your team and another misslotted ninja)

66.6 Stamina and he cannot use his 800 ability does not sound viable. (Even at level 27 for beginner clear... which is pretty ridiculous in and of itself)
Misslotting penalty is 200. While it is important to get the stamina as close as 200 to minimize the penalty, his attack actually plays a huge role in deciding whether he can tank or not. Even for current Taka, it is possible to have a decent clearing chance without getting his chance to tank to 100%.

Quote:
I'm not really sure what your goal is for rebalancing the Hawk Trio. Do you want to make it so they need higher levels to clear Beginner? Beginner event teams use Hawk trio because Juugo Suigetsu Karin is cheaper(Ryo) than any combination of Akatsuki Jounin and Kage (saving several days up to a week of Ryo farming).

In order for the combo to even be playable 1 of the jounin (usually Juugo) needs to be able to hit ~200 Stamina without requiring (potential) weeks of farming Stamina LWs. Leave their Stamina alone. What is the point of forcing FSP onto Suigetsu? There is a maximum of 3 FSP (and 3 RN) per team and at beginner clear levels without LW with your changes that makes clearing the game limited to VERY few options for your other 3 ninjas (only 1 can get a FSP if you require Juugo and Suigetsu to equip 1).
As I said, 200 stamina is not necessary and the trials suggest that with the exp gain bonus that helps increasing more attack and stamina can offset the stamina nerf.

The ryo advantage of the trio can be great enough to allow them to buy the 500s needed. Karin's 200 already gives 10% while Giant Crustacean, an appropriate endgame summon, can give more. Combined with the ryo bonus from event, it is easier than you think to get them all.

Quote:
If the goal is to increase the time it takes Hawk Trio to clear Beginner I think it would be best to simply decrease their damage stat growth. (by .3 means at level 20 is 6 damage less per ninja which is a little more of a nerf than an extra round of stat points to buy or 2 Gobi levels). At level 30 it's 9 damage less (Easy Clear with increased levels penalty for running Taka).

If you think that is too drastic, decreasing damage growth by .2 and reducing their base stats by 2-4 points (1 or 2 attack) would affect their early levels more and later levels less.

Decreasing base stats = weaker early levels with a less significant (% of overall damage) impact on higher levels
Decreasing stat growth = minimal/negligible effect on early levels, becomes multiplicatively more significant at higher levels.

Is the goal to make Hawk trio a beginner-only team or is it to make them less viable on beginner(event)? We're essentially dictating the level required to clear the game by doing this.
I think the goal we can all agree to is to make Taka less overwhelming compared to the traditional Akatsuki setup. Personally I can accept the trio being superior on Beginner and, by a bit, on Easy. Your suggestion to reduce the attack is also possible, but it will make the three ninjas more limited in usage. Perhaps a decrease in base and an increase in growth to encourage overleveling, which is easy with earlier availability, lower cost and the new exp gain bonus.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:53 AM   #56
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Misslotting penalty is 200. While it is important to get the stamina as close as 200 to minimize the penalty, his attack actually plays a huge role in deciding whether he can tank or not. Even for current Taka, it is possible to have a decent clearing chance without getting his chance to tank to 100%.
You're only going to ACTUALLY beat the Kyuubi (who cares about the chance) when he soaks the 4th or 8th hit... also Juugo makes a fine Kage.

Quote:
The ryo advantage of the trio can be great enough to allow them to buy the 500s needed. Karin's 200 already gives 10% while Giant Crustacean, an appropriate endgame summon, can give more. Combined with the ryo bonus from event, it is easier than you think to get them all.
It's not WHETHER you get them all... it's WHEN. plus you need to take into account the breakpoints.

Quote:
I think the goal we can all agree to is to make Taka less overwhelming compared to the traditional Akatsuki setup. Personally I can accept the trio being superior on Beginner and, by a bit, on Easy. Your suggestion to reduce the attack is also possible, but it will make the three ninjas more limited in usage. Perhaps a decrease in base and an increase in growth to encourage overleveling, which is easy with earlier availability, lower cost and the new exp gain bonus.
If you're using Taka past Easy... you are doing yourself a great disservice
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:30 AM   #57
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he can soak/tank the 4th/8th hit even with the rework(greater than 72%). in the current hawk trio, using it in medium is still advantageous especially in event. which is why we're making it fair for teams who choose akatsuki or other jounins which costs more ryo and ck wise but the damage output in WM is lesser due to the stamina which makes hawk trio still ahead in WM-wise.

if one chooses gobi still they have the stamina advantage. as anson pointed out earlier juugo reaches 100 stamina effortlessly with 50 stamina bonus but with the rework
Quote:
his early game (let say level 8) stam will be:
16.4 base
10 combo with Suigetsu
20 hawk combo (proposed)
30 from 200
76 stam and some just love to misslot Karin at that early stage so we have an Akatsuki-level attack Jounin with 76 stamina and some build-in Endurance from being HS.
though on the otherhand suigetsu shall only receive 20 stamina from combo,still amounts to free SSP. it's evident in events that hawk trio is OP since they have relatively low levels but already have high clear chances. and as i said, even with suigetsu using RN as 3rd item in beginner, clear chance is 9% while using SP only, it's 10%
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:00 AM   #58
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You aren't posting any levels, at what level does Juugo have a 72% chance to soak 4th hit with 66 Stamina
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Originally Posted by Scissors
Nerf Rock, Paper's ok.


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Old 07-24-2013, 11:26 AM   #59
kuuya03
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Http://www.ninjamanager.net/showpost...3&postcount=46
I did post basher file here and if hawk trio was lvl 21,chance at 9%. Its much clearer to state that juugo has 145 stamina with 34% damage penalty.

Anyone wishing for a lenient nerf speak now or forever be silent
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:38 PM   #60
anson
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Thank you all for your input! I have updated the first page with the proposed revamps. Feel free to post here if you got a better suggestion. The finalized changes will be submitted to Udon days before the next event.
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