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Old 03-20-2010, 12:02 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurogan View Post
The biggest problem I see with your suggestion is that Udon has already brought up tai immunity as being the counter to hachibi. Same applies for SD. If you make minus enemy immunity too easy to get, hachibi and SD teams will just load up on minus enemy immunity, and with their dmg growth from summon, they'll become unstoppable when their summons get high enough in lvl.

Have you read my summon suggestion here? IMO, the easiest way to solve excessive immunity problems is to remove it from summons. I suggested 5nin 3 enemy nin down for katsuyu, but it's only suggestion. Just change the immunity to something else. I also prefer aeno's immunity rating idea to minus enemy immunity.
What about another SD/Hachibi team that decided to counter the -Immunity ones with just boosting their attack? If the SD/Hachibi team stocks up on -Immunity, you can just ditch immunity and focus on attack to beat them. Cause they wont have the extra attack from LWs, if they only fill up with -immunity. -immunity would do nothing against a team without immunity, and I seriously doubt that every SD/hachibi team will go -immunity.
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Old 03-20-2010, 02:09 PM   #182
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@kurogan, yea, I read all of that. Its because immunities are the primary counter to Hachibi/SD that I believe minus immunity should be rare but still available in large enough amount to make a difference. Players would have to be strategic about whose immunity from the opposite team they want to try to cancel. Also a reason why it won't be on a summon. As for stopping them, what Makido said. Its ironic that by doing anti-immunity, you will now become weaker than other Hachibi/SD teams.

While Aenonar's idea would put a saturating limit on immunity, it just seems so "WoW" to me (or "Diablo"), endurance already works that way, it be nice to keep immunity simple and easy to understand if possible.

Removing immunity from summon helps but doesn't solve the problem. The majority of tai immunity comes from items as well as a small to med fraction of nin immunity. Furthermore, removal of immunity also removes Katsu's use as a counter to SD (and to a lesser extend ninkame to Hachibi). I'm trying for a solution that's minimally invasive to the existing system.
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Old 03-20-2010, 04:41 PM   #183
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What about another SD/Hachibi team that decided to counter the -Immunity ones with just boosting their attack? If the SD/Hachibi team stocks up on -Immunity, you can just ditch immunity and focus on attack to beat them.
By that reasoning my SD/Hachibi team can also ditch immunity and focus on attack to have a 50/50 fight with your team that doesn't stock up on -Immunity when I fight you, and swap back -immunity against the rest :p

Quote:
Cause they wont have the extra attack from LWs, if they only fill up with -immunity. -immunity would do nothing against a team without immunity, and I seriously doubt that every SD/hachibi team will go -immunity.
Hard to say what everyone would do, but I certainly would stack up on -immunity if I had a SD team. At high lvls, SD generates so much reroll by itself, with nin heavy ninjas you would only need to itemize for -immunity to out dmg the non-SD/hachibi teams. Depending on how it is implemented, I think this could be an even bigger nerf to katsuyu than my proposed katsuyu change.

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Originally Posted by Firehydrant View Post
@kurogan, yea, I read all of that. Its because immunities are the primary counter to Hachibi/SD that I believe minus immunity should be rare but still available in large enough amount to make a difference.
The impression I got from your initial post was that this stat's "itemization cost" would be very cheap, thus available in abundance. If it's rare I have a lot less objection.

But, due to summons having uncapped growth, the sweet spot of "rare but enough to make a difference" will keep changing. Right now you might decide you need X amount of -immunity and Y amount would kill the katsuyu teams. 6 months later X amount of -immunity isn't enough, now you need Y. Will -immunity be the only stat where you have to keep introducing new items for based on the highest leveled katsuyu summons?

Quote:
Removing immunity from summon helps but doesn't solve the problem. The majority of tai immunity comes from items as well as a small to med fraction of nin immunity. Furthermore, removal of immunity also removes Katsu's use as a counter to SD (and to a lesser extend ninkame to Hachibi). I'm trying for a solution that's minimally invasive to the existing system.
If there is too much tai immunity, and it doesn't come from summons, then obviously there's too much tai immunity from items! If tai immunity from items is really a problem, then I'd rather reduce the tai immunity from items than add a new stat. Instead of a new bandaid, I'd rather tackle the problem directly.

(Now that you clarified, I'm not as opposed to -immunity as b4, just playing devil's advocate here.)
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Old 03-20-2010, 06:40 PM   #184
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Quote:
The impression I got from your initial post was that this stat's "itemization cost" would be very cheap, thus available in abundance. If it's rare I have a lot less objection.
Yea that was a point I had trouble clarifying, what I mean is there is only a few of these items but the amount of -immunity on them is larger than the immunity on items of equivalent rank. Making them rare will make it difficult to stockpile them as you would say +atk items.

Although the break point does move because of Katsu, it moves very slowly and so a set of -immunity gear can keep the game balance for a year or what not and a few new piece could be released or old pieces adjusted as necessary.

But with that said, I don't consider these new stats to be bandaids for the existing system though whether "there is too much immunity and should be reduce" is a separate discussion. I think regardless of whether immunities are nerfed, these two stats would present interesting new strategic options for teams to use.
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Old 03-20-2010, 10:03 PM   #185
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Keeping immunity as it is with % based, it's very easy to get to 100% or damn close, totally owning those teams. The only reason that it hasn't been changed already is because no one has really abused it ;>


Doesn't matter if it feel like some other game or whatever, it's not good ;>
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Old 03-20-2010, 10:21 PM   #186
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the -nin / -tai didnt sound that bad imo :|
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Old 03-22-2010, 03:05 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurogan View Post
By that reasoning my SD/Hachibi team can also ditch immunity and focus on attack to have a 50/50 fight with your team that doesn't stock up on -Immunity when I fight you, and swap back -immunity against the rest :p
By that reasoning a High seal team could stock up on Tai immunity vs Tai teams, and swap to Nin immunity gear for SD teams. That same thing could be done now, but that's not a concern?:P

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Originally Posted by kurogan View Post
Hard to say what everyone would do, but I certainly would stack up on -immunity if I had a SD team. At high lvls, SD generates so much reroll by itself, with nin heavy ninjas you would only need to itemize for -immunity to out dmg the non-SD/hachibi teams. Depending on how it is implemented, I think this could be an even bigger nerf to katsuyu than my proposed katsuyu change.
Well, since I know everyone would do what you would, I would do the opposite. It's a mind game really:P And yeah, you would probably kill all the non SD/Hachibi teams with only -immunity, but the other SD teams, like mine, would kill you:P And those like me, would on the other hand get killed by non-SD/Hachibi teams. The circle continues.

Now it goes more like: High seal defeats all:D SD team defeats... um well...yeah. That's not exactly true, but the longer time that passes, it gets closer and closer to that, because of two things: Nin-Kame and Katsuyu. The latter more than the first, as many opt for insane nin, little tai nins in SD teams. The more growth we see in Katsuyu summons without those people resetting, the harder it will be for low seal to compete.

It's far off, but there will come a time when there are 100% nin immunity Katsuyus. That means, as more time passes, High seal gets stronger and Low seal gets weaker:P For the simple fact that low seal needs to have SD, so they can't get immunity from anything other than items. And immunity on summons > immunity items. Summons level and gain more immunity, items don't.

You can compare it to poisoning low seal, where it slowly gets worse over time until it finally goes down forever;o

Big wall of text here, and you're not that much against the idea of -immunity anymore so kind of uneccessary I guess:P But oh well, others might want an explanation as well, who knows.
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Old 03-22-2010, 05:54 PM   #188
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I think this discussion has been brought up in the past a couple times already, the general consensus if I remember correctly is that, in order to focus hardcore on 1 or 2 ninjas for one particular immunity, you have to give up a lot as well so everyone was generally okay with it. In that, most items and skills that give immune, don't really give +atk, or other offensive stats, and going heavily immune in one offensive stat, can still make you vulnerable in the other.

Of course, if we say but what about a lvl 100 kat or nin-kame; it makes it look crazy, but to get those kinds of levels is uhh... many, many years away; I'd be surprised to find anyone playing long enough to reach anywhere close to those kinds of levels.

From my experience anyway, since you run a low seal SD team, while obviously, it has a huge vulnerability to a Katsuya team very far down the road, for the most part, it obliterates nearly all other teams once the SD is leveled high enough. That's what those running full low seal SD teams focus on, best scalability towards the endgame for WM purposes, as well as being strong in the end for BA vs non-kat teams, including Manda for the most part which seems to be all the rage nowadays for people complaining about a "broken" BA summon. While high seals could whoop my ass for most of the way, once I got a high level SD and the nin gains and consistency along with it, most Kat teams would fall rather easily as well all things considered since my max damage rose at such a high pace and all six of my ninjas were designed to take advantage of the extreme reroll and max damage. It's a matter of preference, if you want to go for max dmg and potential across all six, then the full low seal, SD is the way to go and is highly effective, aside for the weakness to nin immunity by "choosing" to have all six of your characters as high nin gain char without tai to balance it out; in which the nin imm the SD team has to face has already gotten nerfed in a way due to the splitting of 18 nin imm to 10/10 for high seals. If you are afraid of Kat teams, then the obvious choice in my opinion is to go with a hybrid build, and not focus on 6 low seal, high nin gain characters which is considered an extreme type build. Obviously you lose a lot of the potential damage that users of SD focus on, but if Katsuya is really that big a concern, then that is always a solution if you're thinking that long term.

I recall when KaiKai was in beginner, he dominated ladder pulling ridiculous win streaks using a full SD low seal team, taking out pretty much everyone except one or two early campers who he eventually beat as well. I kind of like the way it is, I've seen shini teams dominate and pull crazy streaks, manda teams dominate and pull crazy streaks, sd teams pull crazy streaks; and immune teams sorta dominate, at least non ladder. It seems like it's more dependent on team level and such, but I haven't seen one team type beat another with drastically lower levels except for maybe the SD build. Or for a build who has a natural advantage over another build. ie: nin-kame vs tai builds, kat vs nin builds, shini vs 2+ lvl5 ninjas, gama vs wind ninjas, etc etc.
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Old 03-22-2010, 06:47 PM   #189
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Actually I don't see a reason why low seal high nin teams should be viable for camping - they never were and I hope they never will be, as they already are the best for progression (as long as you are not unlucky as I am, that is). Good thing is - they will always have the possibility to roll low and one fail in BA = whole team fails, most of the time.
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Old 03-26-2010, 06:52 PM   #190
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Guys, I think you're digressing from the point. I never said anything about making SD viable for BA. I merely said to add -e. immunity in order to promote more variety in team load out and strategic options for battling.

I actually like Aeno's idea too, and I really don't see why -e. immunity is mutually exclusive with diminishing return for immunity stacking. Diminishing return just make it so people can't abuse immunity. While it may have been true in the past that making high immunity ninja require weakening of other ninjas, that becomes less true as more and more immunity LWs are release. Case in point, the latest +14% TI/NI LW. -e. immunity, if limited in availability, will simply give people strategic options for trying to overturn an otherwise decided battle. And the opponent can likewise try to predict your move and counter with the proper equipment. Its really only useful for two teams of roughly equal strengths to begin with and would add new dimensions to battling. I don't see why we can't adopt both -e. immunity and a diminishing return immunity system.


Just as an aside, I disagree that you need a lv 100 Kats to shutdown an SD. The maximum potential damage for low nin is equal to the value of nin. That means an NI of 50% is all you need to shutdown low nin given teams of similar lvs. Which means you only need Kats of Lv 40 (10% from high seal bonus). Since Kats also give +5 instead of SD's +4, the break point happens even sooner than 40. Lv 100 summon may be years away, Lv 40 is not.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:07 PM   #191
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Actually for 50% nin immune you just need a level 16 Katsuyu at some ninjas, like Tsunade FN - mine currently has 52% nin immunity and 25% tai immunity.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:44 PM   #192
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Not really against the idea of adding a -imm weapons, maybe available to harder modes, but I don't think immunity teams have it that good as is. They sacrifice quite a bit to reach very high levels of immunity and the drawbacks to that have been discussed in many older threads if you want to search them out.

ie: tortoise shield or dragon shield, while both provide tons of immunity; you really need to do some choice picking to field a true immune team, which requires a lot of sacrificed growths, and the use of many of the versatile powerhouse +atk LW. If you don't, then like many said, even if you can make 1 or 2 really immune focused, they can only take out so many, and there is likely a weakness to them as well. I'm not talking about katsuya reaching 100% immune to beat an SD team, I agree that even with 40% nin imm on all ninjas, you should be able to whoop an SD team, but to beat a similarly leveled Shini/Manda/Gobi/Lesser, etc, depending on their lineup, 40% doesn't guarantee anything to be honest, and to even get near equal win rates as the other powerhouse combat summon teams, you'd likely need the katsuya to give close to 60% or more immunity, especially those that are true hybrids or non-nin focused.

If a team is serious about focusing on immunity, weapons like those recently introduced for extreme might not even warrant consideration. To create -immunity weapons sort of marginalize the draw of immune teams to begin with, and I think udon mentioned in one of the past threads on this that he isn't against people striving to build ultimate crazy immune teams; likely cause, it's a pretty far off goal to begin with. The same way people want to build the most badass min-max SD team, or a hachibi crit team, these extreme like teams are a fun goal for people, and are generally fine since to achieve such high levels of it will indeed take many years. Like I said, I don't think many will be playing for that long, and by then, I'm sure udon will think of different ways to revitalize any stagnant metagame.

It's the same reason why I would sort of be against the creation of anti-death items; while yes, it'll add variation, doesn't it sort of kill the point of shinigami? If I can basically patch on anti-death weapons where needed, you pretty much say, suck it shini users. I already don't like the fact that items give such HUGE amounts of resistance, since it makes people who focus on elemental advantage pretty marginalized. ie: It makes the cost of lesser kyuubi look even more stupid, as well as a huge reason why manda users can get away with getting hit by such high levels of manda's -res in BA.

Because despite the power of elem adv for BA, manda users only have to focus on patching up 1 or 2 of their ninjas who the opponent might be trying to get elem adv on just to stand a shot at winning against it's heavy +atk gain.

Edit: Another problem I have with this is that, attributes such as tai imm and nin imm, death, etc are all pretty finite all things considered. Yes, summons can level until forever, but you will be dead by then. What currently is out there that has enemy down are stamina, resist, and attack; which is a lot more acceptable to me because of how easy it is to still go beyond it's impact, so the impact of those items with even -40 stamina or -30 atk or -40 resists or whatnot, doesn't play as huge a factor as say, antilvl5 death 50% chance, or -10 enemy ninja tai immunity, -10 enemy ninja nin immunity, or -10tai/-10 nin imm, because you can gain those attributes in abundance; FN's being naturally a perfect counter to it.
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:25 AM   #193
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To be fair there's a big difference between anti-death and anti-immunity. L5 death only works on 20% of ninja. Since ppl know exactly the lvs it affects, they also tends to keep their ninjas out of the multiple of 5 so its actual effectiveness is even lower. Immunity is useful against everyone. The usefulness varies but you always get something out of having that immunity around.

I don't like the huge resist either. Though if you think about it resist is on the same side as immunity and ele adv is on the same side as anti-immunity. Which is also why I don't like how immunity can ramp up to ridiculous values.

Here's a quick analysis of the abundance of immunities. I look through the list of LWs, picked out the top 11 for TI, threw in the TI kage item (can throw in another LW but won't make that much of a difference). The average TI per item is 13.6%. I assume that each ninja slots 2 of these items and a TI ability. TI ability varies from a fairly common 10% to the rare 33%. So I assume ~15% on the average. Throw in seal and you have an average of 52% TI across the entire team. Now LWs aren't the easiest things in the world to get but as the campers have demonstrated, they can be found easily enough once you start camping. 52% TI is pretty abundunt in my opinion. NI is available in less quantity but that's what Katsuyu is for.

A few -e. immunity will not destroy the value of immunity eq because there will be far fewer of them in such an environment. What they will do instead is encourage people to think about how to distribute their immunity eq in a way that best counter a challenger with anti-immunity. Given the variability in the amount of immunity available from LW, the immunity team can simply stack its immunity in such a way that it avoids the one or two enemy ninja that will have anti-immunity. Thus the battle becomes more dynamic.

A small number of anti-immunity LW does not make any one summon more or less viable, it only adds strategic options.


Edit: I can't believe I forgot to mention this. As it is immunity is powerful, but what I find especially overpowering about immunity is that there are two skills in clan war, +TI and +NI that completely favors immunity builds. This is because each of them goes up to 20%. So that team with an average of 52% TI now has 72% TI for clan war. The same equipment load out that gives 52% TI also gives ~20% NI, so in clan war that becomes 40% if you choose to equip the +NI ability (this is assuming no Katsu). All of this imbalance can be solved with Aeno's diminishing return system. But I should reiterate once again that -e. immunity is not going to significantly impact the value of immunities because it is rare. The issue of nerfing immunity (whether it needs to be nerfed will of course need to be debated) and adding a few -e immunity LW is only weakly linked.
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:53 AM   #194
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Adding -e immunity stuff should work out pretty good, and could be converted like e stamina on the world map
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:29 AM   #195
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plus will ecourge people to build more than one summon. like gobi
in case there are alot of -e inmunity in meta.
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:14 AM   #196
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like firehydrant said:
-e immunity wont be that overpowered as sparhawk (f.e.) trying to tell. if we add this stat only to some LWs it will be obvios that only some of ninjas in a team could have this stat (let say 2 of them) - so the immunities still works for other 4 in a team.

spar - u r saying its hard to build good immu team and they needs to sacrifice a lot. OK. but, nowadays, there is no encounter to that. and when some strategy is final (mean there is no encounter to it) it means that the game balance is wrong. good balanced game havnt any tactics that couldnt be encounter (see StarCraft - best balanced game ever).

so -e Immu is neccessary (or some other thing that could encounter immus). and manda, while beeing some sort of an option, isnt enought.
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:09 PM   #197
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Spoiler:
lets just make an lw that gives 100% ti down.... then everyone beside every singel camper will jump for joy !
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:56 PM   #198
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Spoiler:
lets just make an lw that gives 100% ti down.... then everyone beside every singel camper will jump for joy !
Especially since only that camper can get it :>
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Old 12-18-2010, 07:42 PM   #199
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O.o xD impossible only =D
or wait a minute 100% O.o
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:19 PM   #200
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kilik99: Stop bumping with worthless content... Second time you've done it on THIS PAGE!
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