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Old 02-14-2010, 08:51 AM   #21
udon
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Thanks Firehydrant!

I can't really follow all math explanations but... Would everyone agree that
Quote:
0 reroll 0.5 atk
50 reroll 0.58 atk
100 reroll 0.66 atk
150 reroll 0.70 atk
sounds fairly reasonable?

*making some LWs for easy, medium, extreme*
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:38 PM   #22
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Slightly high (as in, because of rounding), but yes. I can agree with those values.
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Old 02-14-2010, 06:03 PM   #23
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Yea, don't sweat it udon, I can't follow my own math sometimes. Glad I could help!
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:25 AM   #24
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Currently there isn't any attribute for +crit damage (only the chance to do 25% crit). I did bring up a suggestion for 3 new summons were one happens to have + crit damage. So im wondering if anyone (looking at Lunar2 and Firehydrant) feel like doing some calculus on this so we can make it work? Hopefully others will like the idea of these summons and we might see them in the future?
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:33 AM   #25
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I saw it - viewed them all as underwhelming (unless they cost less than 32 base chakra). #1 doesn't scale quickly enough, even for camping. #2 scales even slower plus has to deal with an effect cap at +50%. #3 has to deal with being second-best/third-best in virtually any team layout - I cannot see what kind of team can pass up other summons for a modest tai/endurance boost.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:49 AM   #26
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First of all i didn't ask if their gains were to high or to low, i did ask about an attribute for crit damage that would work (for summons and perhaps items?). But if you don't feel up to it there probably are others who are.

On the other hand they are suggestions which mean anyone could come with ideas to make them better if needed. I'd like the idea of a summon to be in the same class as Katsuyu as there aren't any good tai summons right now. One could even be made a 40+ chakra summon for all i know? But it require some calculating first, especially crit damage as there isn't an attribute for it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:13 AM   #27
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I'm not sure what you're asking then. If you wanted a list of options for attributes directly related to crit, they're pretty obvious (rate, power, tai).

And if you're asking for scale, it's pretty much impossible to balance with the reroll mechanic which is on strong but diminishing returns. You'd have to use rate as your variable, and add in the possibility of a diminished effect past 100%, to even come close.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:00 AM   #28
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

Last edited by Firehydrant; 09-08-2011 at 03:01 AM. Reason: Making tables in txt is such chore, anyone know an easier way to make table in posts?
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:15 AM   #29
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Code:
use 
    code
         tags
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:34 AM   #30
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Code:
+-----+
|neat!|
+-----+
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:45 AM   #31
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Assuming your chart is correct (I'm too tired to run the numbers right now, at any rate), that doesn't sound like a terrible solution. Although, I would prefer a non-linear growth for the tai end, if for no other reason than that it would make for a better debate in camping (as you put it, SD would be shunned in favor of CM in this meta, given enough time to adapt). It does, however, significantly challenge the conventional SD setup on higher difficulties - semi-stability should be worth enough to make up for the gaps in that chart, especially if it unlocks a little sooner than SD. The main issue I would see is this - SD has a lower end version (Piranha), so this summon would likely need a parallel one.

Your solution (again, assuming your math is correct, and I have no reason to think it isn't) seems like the best case scenario short of using crit_rate as the variable, which while less linear of a solution is also less thematic, for reasons you've already stated. LWs, however, should strictly leave crit_rate alone if this happens, as they would have far too strong of a synergy. A critical in most games is well under a 50% probability anyway.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:03 PM   #32
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Yea, I totally agree. I couldn't come up with a way that makes critical saturate in a "natural" manner. And I didn't like the idea of critical working in too similar of a fashion to reroll. So I settle for a fairly difficult to reach break point at which the two setup eventually evens out.

The synergy between crit_dmg and crit_chance is so high that its difficult to justify have a lot of both. But in a system where you have a lot of crit_chance you run into the issue of how do you handle crit_chance pass 100% so I settled for a system with a lot of crit_dmg instead.
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Old 02-18-2010, 03:08 AM   #33
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I have no problem with this, but then we need some "clear" rules on where and if to use Crit Chance on items/abilities. Because right now, i've prepared maybe about 30 new LWs spread out on Easy, Medium, Extreme and perhaps 10-15 of them have Crit Chance between 5-20% added to them.

If we add crit_dmg, should it "replace" crit_chance as the "reroll" for taijutsu users on items? And let crit_chance be a rare attribute? Also, how will this affect the "worth" of crit_chance, and what will the 1 crit_dmg be worth in Atk?

This will delay the new system a bit and also Killerbee, but I'd rather get things good from the beginning :)
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:32 AM   #34
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

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Old 02-18-2010, 11:32 AM   #35
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Still a bit confused about all numbers but... I did some testing, does this seem right?

Code:
50% crit_dmg @ 300 tai ... +1% crit_chance = 0.75 atk
37.5% crit_dmg @ 300 tai ... +1% crit_chance = 0.5626 atk
25% crit_dmg @ 300 tai ... +1% crit_chance = 0.375 atk

100% crit_chance @ 300 tai ... +1% crit_dmg = 1.5 atk
75% crit_chance @ 300 tai ... +1% crit_dmg = 1.125 atk
50% crit_chance @ 300 tai ... +1% crit_dmg = 0.75 atk
I used 300 tai to compare, just like I did with ninjutsu/reroll, immunities etc, to get an "atk-value" of the attributes.

The concerns with yet another attribute is... Taijutsu gets two to play with, ninjutsu only one. And as it might not be good to have equipment where both of these are fairly common, this means High seal taijutsu ninjas cannot easily make use of these if they want to give it a shot using summons/equips. I guess this could still be done if we set a limit of 75% crit or something, so those with 1 seal do not go for the equips with good +crit_chance. I even prepared a summon with pretty good +crit_chance/+reroll (+5 reroll /+6 crit) for 36 chakra for those who want to go a diverse nin/tai team, perhaps with high seals so they can make use of the +crit_chance before it gets over 100 (which it does fast if you begin with 1 seals 50%).

Quote:
For ~75% crit_chance, a ratio of 1% crit_dmg to 5-6% reroll is about right in terms of attributes I think.

If low tai team can reach 100% crit_chance, it becomes about 1% crit_dmg to every 9-10% reroll because crit_dmg is worth a lot more due to the synergy with crit_chance.
I'm not sure I get this... can you elaborate on why? Is 1% crit_dmg worth 5-6% reroll if you have 75% crit_chance? And if this is at around say 300 taijutsu? If my tests are right, and we say 1% reroll is worth 0.5 atk (at 300 nin), then 1% crit_dmg is around 2-2.5% reroll. Anyway, I'm not that good at this so...

Some example LWs:
+28 tai, +9% crit, +50 lightn dmg, +30 lightn adv (~35 atk tier easy mode)
+52 tai, +13% crit (~35 atk tier medium mode)
+26 sta, -62 enemy sta, +72 endurance, +16% crit (~45 atk tier medium mode)
+26 tai, +26 nin, +20% reroll, +20% crit, +16% death5 (~55 atk extreme mode)
+76 tai, +23% crit (~55 atk extreme mode)

They all have different uses... The second last would be better for balanced low seals, and the first for high difficulty mode item hunting taijutsu ninjas. 1% crit (crit_chance) is counted as 0.375 atk worth on the above LWs.

edit: for those who are wondering about beginner mode lw's, there will be new, better ones, added along with the bijuu island dungeon. as mentioned before, each boss (summon) will have several (theoretical max of 8) different difficulties, and you can choose which one to hunt LWs on. So several beginner available LWs will be thrown in there, so "campers" can try and beat say lvl 8 hachibi-mode and hunt his LW.
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:40 AM   #36
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I'll stay out of the LW debate, since it doesn't impact me in the slightest (though I will take the time to remind you, if all these LWs are being added, would it kill you to modify the Leftover Guardian branched missions?)

I'm of the opinion that crit_chance should not be a variable at all under this proposal, aside from seal. It would be far too easy to abuse as a high seal, let alone low seal.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:00 PM   #37
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I actually don't know exactly what you want me to do about the leftover guardian missions. The only thing I know is that you do not like the idea of being able to get a couple LWs (there's 1 you are interested in) when defeating the hard version with team naruto. Should I remove this "feature" altogether (because?) or change attributes for Zweihander (that was the name right? so this loss won't feel bad for camper teams?). I have never heard anyone mention this before... I'm pretty sure at least.

Anyway, you might have missed the edit, but there are more kickass LWs planned for beginner too.. especially for camper teams with insane levels that can take out über bosses. The LWs mentioned are just some examples of how crit was implemented.

Would be "fun"/interesting to be able to use both variables, but maybe someone can give some theories of how imbalanced tai could become with let's say 50% crit_dmg and 75% crit_chance compared to a 200% reroll or something, and also have immunities in mind for BA and WM advancement... different scenarios. Anyway, would be cool to at least use crit_chance on some occasions or unique to certain ninjas, or on a summon or two at a low rate etc.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:27 PM   #38
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I had a thread about it some time ago: http://www.ninjamanager.net/showthread.php?t=820

Nobody really responded to it, though.

Zweihander is absolutely crucial to the ability to camp well, believe it or not. I won't go into the reasons why here, but it's not what you're probably thinking (baiting).

Here's why crit_chance shouldn't be a variable: Average Tai Damage = (Tai/2) + [crit_chance * (crit_multiplier - 1.0x) * (Tai/2)]. Because it is all multiplied, an increase to crit_chance will drastically increase the effect of crit_multiplier, and vice versa. A crit_chance of 100%, for example, doubles the effect of crit_multiplier compared to crit_chance of 50%. A crit_multiplier of 1.50x Tai damage would also double the effect of crit_chance, compared to 1.25x.

Because each is so dependent on the other, it forces an effect where if a LW/Summon/etc exists that raises either along with a LW/Summon/etc that raises the other, to own one drastically inflates the worth of the other to your team. For example, suppose there's an LW that adds 50% to crit_rate and another LW that adds 0.25x to crit_multiplier. If Ninja A is wearing either LW, the value of the other LW would double if also equipped to that ninja - which is very restricting in terms of matching up equips, as well as potentially overpowering.

EDIT: I'm stuck using Wii browser for awhile, so don't expect fast replies [PC getting repaired...again...ditto for chatango/clan chat].
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:35 AM   #39
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Down with Aenonar the tyrant!

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Old 02-19-2010, 08:55 AM   #40
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Hm, yeah I kinda thought giving more alternative builds (high sealer going Crit etc) would be interesting, but I understand things could go way out of hand sooner or later when players get the right LWs (+crit_dmg +chance).

Would it perhaps work better if we use Crit_DMG as the "common" attribute on LWs/summons/etc and only use Crit_CHANCE for specific ninja abilities, say on Maito Gai ninja (they all have high seal), or Pain ninjas (we could finally remove that useless Elemental immunity from his 800 ability :D), Kisame, for example, or if anyone can think of a balanced summon with very low +crit_CHANCE gain it could be used there.

I have prepared some summons we could take a look at later (bijuu summons) to see if there are any big balance issues with them ^_^

So, in short:
1) Use crit_dmg instead of crit_chance as the main attribute players will look for on LWs etc?
crit_chance only on small amount of high seal ninjas abilities.
2) Set crit_dmg's attribute worth to 0.75 atk?
Crit_chance was at 0.375. The "attribute worth list" is just for help when creating LWs, abilities etc. Will be good for both me and players who want to contribute.
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