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Old 10-22-2012, 12:51 PM   #121
kzaries
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Originally Posted by Aenonar View Post
Hum... Well... Just one silly idea... What if immunity nullified each other rather than having -imm stat?

Like:

89% nin 23% tai
vs
45% nin 40% tai
=
44% nin 0% tai
vs
0% nin 17% tai


It would more or less be the same thing except that the actual fights are a bit more interesting than two ninjas rolling low numbers...


Immunity still needs a nerf on itself, but -imm has always been a pretty much useless stat...
Or we can just make it like Stam, 100 stam normal slot, 200 for misslot.
Stam over is useless. If you want damage stabilization you have to get Endurance

Let's make immunity like that, 80% max, but having 100% immunity gives you minus 20% enemy immunity cushion.

Or you can total max of 120% immunity. Be it, 100/20 or 60/60.
(if you exceed, the lower one will be chipped off. Old: 70/60 New: 70/50, old: 100:70 New: 100:20)

Maybe add-in, Minus immunity can be like weakness. So, IF person has -20 enemy tai, the enemy has 10% tai immunity, Therefore, enemy will take 10% more tai dmg. Also, No more than 15% additional weakness
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:20 PM   #122
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Why not just make it so that you can just have 100% immunity all together tai+nin, so you can either have 10tai and 90nin, or 50/50, every % above doesn't count. Like if you have 50/51, the 1 % from 50 wouldn't count, or If you'd have 60/60 the 10% from each wouldn't count. That seems as a fairly simple and uncomplicated solution.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:42 PM   #123
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because you would have to establish some sort of priority as to which immunity counts and which one does not.

if it was up to me, i would have -enemy imm take off a percentage of the enemy's immunity rather than just a flat rate. if you have -20 tai imm, you would take off 20% of their overall tai imm rather than a flat rate. sucks at the beginning, but more effective as you stack it.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:15 PM   #124
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-enemy immunity is a pretty poor stat to begin with, that would only hurt it even more ;o
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:20 AM   #125
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because you would have to establish some sort of priority as to which immunity counts and which one does not.

if it was up to me, i would have -enemy imm take off a percentage of the enemy's immunity rather than just a flat rate. if you have -20 tai imm, you would take off 20% of their overall tai imm rather than a flat rate. sucks at the beginning, but more effective as you stack it.
The priority would be easy to establish.

You take the ratio, like to say someone has 60 tai and 50 nin immunity.

You would take x% off each of the immunities, x being their ratio: 6:5 = 1.2:1, so you would take a way 1.2% from tai imm. and 1% from nin imm. till you'd get the total from 110 back to 100. And if the numbers wouldn't be as perfect, the priority would fall to the immunity with the highest %, in this case the tai immunity (in case you use the ratio thing and still have 101%, then this would count).

Sorry if it was too unclear, can't explain it better ,,on paper,, since it's all in my head :D

P.S. X could be a smaller number than 1.2:1 for easier calculation, like 0.15:0.125

Last edited by TheBlackFlash; 12-20-2012 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:31 AM   #126
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there is other way to balance immunity without nerfing it simply make it so there are no lw's and skills with 11 or more immunity (10 tai/nin immunity on 1 lw/skill max) that way the strongest immunity build will be like 40 tai 100 nin. that in itself is really OP but it leaves a window to beat immunity teams with pure tai\nin teams. as for "compensation" (there WILL be people who'll try to whine about it) of nerfing skills and lws you can increase other stats on these lws and skills (or add endurance to lws without other stats than imm.). and it's ok to have 10 tai 10 nin at single lw/skill.

pros of this "nerf" is that it's easy to do and it's not a nerf of immunity as stat but simple correction of OP lws. cons of it is that it's not what aenonar wants.

way i see imm. build: ninkame tams should be able to beat tai (read crit) teams, katsuyu teams should be able nin teams.

P.S. i ask anyone who agree with me to write your opinion, so that opposition could see that i'm not alone, and if you think it a stupid idea then tell why so i can correct myself.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:26 PM   #127
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thats a pretty ridiculous nerf, u could add a small diminishing return after say 30-40 % so its only .9 effectiveness maybe 100 % imm could equal 85-90%
60 % or so with 100 is outrageous , that took years to achieve , a small nerf is all that is needed without ruining the game and opening the door a hell of a lot wider for all the teams nearby
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:15 PM   #128
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thats a pretty ridiculous nerf, u could add a small diminishing return after say 30-40 % so its only .9 effectiveness maybe 100 % imm could equal 85-90%
60 % or so with 100 is outrageous , that took years to achieve , a small nerf is all that is needed without ruining the game and opening the door a hell of a lot wider for all the teams nearby
A small nerf wont do anything at all. Even as little as 20-30% can mean that it's impossible to win against them unless you yourself also stack immunity against them. Like if you have 50% nin immunity no nin teams can ever roll high enough against an equal ninja. Even if they roll their max it's not even your own average

The "but they spent years" argument just isn't valid as this has been known for years. Immunity needs to change and it needs to be a massive nerf.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:13 PM   #129
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ur talking about basically halving the value of immunity and taking away the 40-50000 wins it took to get that high, the immunities can be taken down with a few custom lws or other fobidden - immunity weapons , if ur so bothered u can even roll a - immunity summon get it somewhere near spars level and u win easily , this get to the top by just nerfing this severely is just 2 cheap, taking a 100% immunity to 80-90 is a big difference people are just failing to accept it because its still not an auto win, 80 % immunity easily killed by 1 custom weapon and another high end weapon, even if u cant defeat those players who do have these high level summons u will be a lot closer and take out more of the lineup, giving u more xp and making ur team advance faster
lets say 20 % imm = 20 %
30 % = 29
40=38
50=46
60=54
70=61
80=68
90=74
100=80
110=85
i would consider that extreme, and thats going to make people require 30-40000 less kills to get a summon on par, and u want more ? the tools are there if people want to win so bad then use them not demolish everything they cant accept
on a personal note if i had the items i wanted people with high imm summons would go down easy, lets take sum1 with 100 % immunity that has now become 80-90%
u have 30-50% - immunities u can also easy have 30-50 % immunities
that IS NOT hard to achieve - boom ur equal
i think even 100 > 80 is far 2 much , just far 2 easy to overcome it
100-82-86 would be acceptable for both parties i think( there really are only 3 or 4 people were talking about here) , just make a formula with different bands and different plateaus
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:40 PM   #130
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You fail to see the obvious flaw in your reasoning. Yes you can reduce the immunity, but nowhere near nullify it, at least not with the current items available. And since you can't remove it completely you'll still fail to defeat it.

And most of all: That the only way to kill an immunity team, apart from an extreme immunity+attack team. All other teams are just invalid. Such a system with no possible variance is just stupid.

By making immunity a normal supplement to the teams but not the main priority (since it loses effectiveness quickly) more team builds become valid. You could go heavy on it, but it wouldn't completely overpower any other builds. Other builds like crit/reroll/endurance/attack/elements/-attack would actually have a place in camping and seriously spice up end game.

Last I went through the campers it was like 90% immunity campers and the rest random attempts at something else.


And if it's not obvious, -immunity would follow the same curve. It's not like you could just equip two -immunity items and completely remove their hard earned immunity.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:01 AM   #131
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why should u be able to nullify it unlesss ur aiming for it? a bijuu or ibuse with some lws could easy take them down, what that can do is stop people getting >130 there are plenty combinations that can beat a level 100 immunity summon like jeee a level 100 summon, can u complain sum1 with a level 100 gobi is overpowered if every1 else has a level 40, people like that premmed like mad to get it that high
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:45 AM   #132
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Since there are no -Endurance stats, could High endurance + High attack and -Enemy Stamina compete with immunity based teams?

Take away their stamina and they suffer from normal decay penalties.
Couple that with -Enemy Attack / +Attack, will you stand a better chance given high enough levels / summon?

Long term Gedou Mazou or Rokubi an effective option as summon to compete with immunity teams?
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKatsura View Post
why should u be able to nullify it unlesss ur aiming for it? a bijuu or ibuse with some lws could easy take them down, what that can do is stop people getting >130 there are plenty combinations that can beat a level 100 immunity summon like jeee a level 100 summon, can u complain sum1 with a level 100 gobi is overpowered if every1 else has a level 40, people like that premmed like mad to get it that high
You're not getting it at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi_Nemekaku View Post
Since there are no -Endurance stats, could High endurance + High attack and -Enemy Stamina compete with immunity based teams?

Take away their stamina and they suffer from normal decay penalties.
Couple that with -Enemy Attack / +Attack, will you stand a better chance given high enough levels / summon?

Long term Gedou Mazou or Rokubi an effective option as summon to compete with immunity teams?
Well endurance team might be a bit of a stretch since the only thing you really have to do to beat them is hit higher on the first attack and the whole thing is ruined... But if you had a LS nin with high endurance and reroll you could do some serious damage
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:18 AM   #134
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You're not getting it at all.



Well endurance team might be a bit of a stretch since the only thing you really have to do to beat them is hit higher on the first attack and the whole thing is ruined... But if you had a LS nin with high endurance and reroll you could do some serious damage

Great info! Can giving your opponent "negative" stamina have any added effect? or os it the same as 0? If they do have 0 stamina, will their first attack be penalized? I understand a misslotted ninja would have penalties, but for sake of this example lets assume this opponent is not misslotted. What effect does 0 and/or "negative" stamina have on the first attack, if any?
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:05 AM   #135
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Great info! Can giving your opponent "negative" stamina have any added effect? or os it the same as 0? If they do have 0 stamina, will their first attack be penalized? I understand a misslotted ninja would have penalties, but for sake of this example lets assume this opponent is not misslotted. What effect does 0 and/or "negative" stamina have on the first attack, if any?
Negative stamina was disabled after Lunar screwed around with it and it went /lol and increased attack instead, so now it's capped at 0. But removing more stamina means they'd have to pump in even more to get any.

And there's no impact on the first attack from stamina and endurance
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #136
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there isnt anything to get, the game u want i see ruined, the future i see is far better, people like xagashi have allready started to lose, if u cant win then tough shit, if u still want to rape imunity an idea with .1 or .2 negative immunities could be added to summon levels giving any1 nearby a non overpowering chance
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:35 PM   #137
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I feel like if you give a cap to how much nin/tai stats immunity can affect, then it will lessen the impact of immunity. There's a total cap of 400 nin it can affect but only when you have 100% nin immunity, same goes for tai. And if you don't have 100% immunity then the stat it takes away scales along with your percentage. For example, tai immunity at 12% can only affect x many tai but tai immunity at 30% can affect x+36 tai (for every 1% you get to affect an additional 2 tai). These are just random numbers to illustrate my idea and are not necessary what I want the scale to be but you get the idea.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:39 PM   #138
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It is unfortunate but with OP LW that offer 25%+ immune, it breaks at endgame bc 25%+ offers more than any counter setup ie +/-Attack ect. All builds aside from immune are irrelevant and a counter to this build has yet to surface. I personally have been 100% inactive for 1 1/2 years and have been back for a week now and its like stepping out of a time machine! I love the new content but it is clear that something needs to be done to encourage other endgame builds.

/.02

EDIT: Nobody wants to be forced into HS Tai FNK (unless for progression on FM) bc Nin stat is null by Kats builds. I want Midara FNK or Kisame FNK yet I fear they are not viable at this time :/

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Old 08-26-2013, 02:15 PM   #139
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The problem with immunity teams right now is that the best counter to them is to have 6 Taijitsu Ninjas at level 100+ with a level 40+ Hachibi or Giant Rhino as a summon. Also, for either of these to work, LWs with -Immunity (mainly ones from finishing top 10 in events) and/or Crit Damage increase are necessary.

For example:
Sparhawk's Lv174 Hidan
Total Attack: 1139
Max Possible Tai Immunity: 86%

VS
Level 116 Mifune + Level 40 Hachibi
Total Taijitsu Based Attack: 707
After Crit with 105% Boost: 1449
Max Possible -Immunity: 66% (Omega + Phoenix Blade + Event LW)
Damage After Crit & Immunity: 1159

So as it stands, in order to beat a powerful immunity team, one must beat Forbidden, have a +9 Tai FNK and have an amazing set of LW.

And just for kicks, here is the calculation with Giant Rhino:

Level 116 Mifune + Level 50 Giant Rhino
Total Taijitsu Based Attack: 747 (Musashi + Force Edge + Exodus )
After Crit with 98% Boost: 1479
Max Possible -Immunity: 65%
Damage After Crit & Immunity: 1168 (1210 with attack from LWs)

Edit:
Either way, this requires a significant time investment, especially considering how much time someone like Sparhawk has invested into this game. Even with the proper Ninjas, Summons and LWs, you're still relying on a 50% chance to critical. As far as camping goes, Hachibi would be stronger if EVERY FNK had multiple -Immunity LW, but Giant Rhino can (eventually) guarantee good -Immunity for all your Ninjas without having to compete and finish top10 in every single event. (However the game currently lacks enough Crit Damage LW to spread over multiple FNK)

Last edited by TuffHunter; 08-26-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 08-26-2013, 04:35 PM   #140
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Might just as well toss this in but... Another idea I've had for immunity, mostly based on a system I've thought about to determine ability values.. It would still need a general nerf of the insane amounts though. Just a general idea to make immunity a bit more interesting. The immunity would be based on your own stats rather than completely demolishing any enemy on a flat %

Say you have 50% tai immunity and the stats 200 tai 800 nin

The tai immunity would reduce the enemy tai by 50% of the average stats of your own ninja

200+800=1000 total stats, 500 average. 50% tai immunity would be 250 reduced tai for the enemy.. So not only would you have to stack up immunity, but you would also have to maintain your nin and tai in order to utilize it. It's not really a solution nor would it really change much apart from making immunity more fair on low vs high levels, as in time spent leveling up rather than a low level sniping high level targets with no effort


Pros:
Ninja levels becomes a factor as well as ninja classes, so time spent leveling pays off.
Potentially lowers the effectiveness a bit depending on what ninja you're using, higher stat ninjas like kages etc would benefit more from it.

Cons:
High level teams would be a bit more dominant
Certain high class immunity ninjas like danzou kage would be worth more than it already is
More complex system...
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